The State of the UPC

[A.W. Bowman]

There in lies the problem: In the early days of the church (until about 350 AD), ministry was just that, a servant's calling, not a professional office that was to be catered to. The ministry was established by God to a sacrificial service of the care and feeding the flock of God, not to be its lord and master, to give to the body of Christ, not to take from it. That is strictly a Western view of the church, not God's biblical view.

There is a diminishing number of ministers who are willing to minister to (to be a servant to) others. Rather, many of today's ministers desire to be ministered to and supported in a manner that they would like to become accustomed to (See Matthew 23). Spiritual pride is a terrible master.

However, our current form of church government will change only slowly, or until the current heads of the local congregations are removed - or they run away, and the congregations are scattered. Only then will we see the church in its original structure and role in the world.

Even here in the U.S. there is already a growing 'Apostolic' underground church meeting in homes, barns, sheds, back yards, and the like. God is raising up men and women of spiritual integrity to lead and feed the church as it exists in the world, not behind the grand doors of a shrine (an idol made of wood, stone and metal) that demands the sacrifice of the people. Spiritual gifting and callings are being exercised in the mutual ministering of the body to the body, without the approval or control of a local Lord, even as Paul told Timmy to finish setting in order, and instructed the congregation at Corinth in how to conduct themselves, and as seen exercised in Acts 15.

But, these were apostolic churches, not what we have today. Even so, there yet remains wolves who would take advantage of these small home missions/churches too. There is no such thing as a 'safe place'. Everyone must remain vigilant.

It is this independent spiritual movement that the established 'licensed ministry' view as a threat to their profession. And, rightly so!

[James Griffin]

Coonskinner. Matt. Rrford. Et al. Glad you finally decided to jump in. Not as murky as was prognosicated. LOL

[Pilgrum]

Originally Posted by A.W. Bowman

There in lies the problem: In the early days of the church (until about 350 AD), ministry was just that, a servant's calling, not a professional office that was to be catered to. The ministry was established by God to a sacrificial service of the care and feeding the flock of God, not to be its lord and master, to give to the body of Christ, not to take from it. That is strictly a Western view of the church, not God's biblical view.

There is a diminishing number of ministers who are willing to minister to (to be a servant to) others. Rather, many of today's ministers desire to be ministered to and supported in a manner that they would like to become accustomed to (See Matthew 23). Spiritual pride is a terrible master.

However, our current form of church government will change only slowly, or until the current heads of the local congregations are removed - or they run away, and the congregations are scattered. Only then will we see the church in its original structure and role in the world.

Even here in the U.S. there is already a growing 'Apostolic' underground church meeting in homes, barns, sheds, back yards, and the like. God is raising up men and women of spiritual integrity to lead and feed the church as it exists in the world, not behind the grand doors of a shrine (an idol made of wood, stone and metal) that demands the sacrifice of the people. Spiritual gifting and callings are being exercised in the mutual ministering of the body to the body, without the approval or control of a local Lord, even as Paul told Timmy to finish setting in order, and instructed the congregation at Corinth in how to conduct themselves, and as seen exercised in Acts 15.

But, these were apostolic churches, not what we have today. Even so, there yet remains wolves who would take advantage of these small home missions/churches too. There is no such thing as a 'safe place'. Everyone must remain vigilant.

It is this independent spiritual movement that the established 'licensed ministry' view as a threat to their profession. And, rightly so!

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

I outta touch these days. When did James Kilgore pass?

Ah...like Winston Churchill said..."The reports of my death have been greatly exagerated..."

I was talking about Glen Kilgore of Lima, Ohio...Wrong Kilgore.



...you get my point.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by A.W. Bowman

There in lies the problem: In the early days of the church (until about 350 AD), ministry was just that, a servant's calling, not a professional office that was to be catered to. The ministry was established by God to a sacrificial service of the care and feeding the flock of God, not to be its lord and master, to give to the body of Christ, not to take from it. That is strictly a Western view of the church, not God's biblical view.

There is a diminishing number of ministers who are willing to minister to (to be a servant to) others. Rather, many of today's ministers desire to be ministered to and supported in a manner that they would like to become accustomed to (See Matthew 23). Spiritual pride is a terrible master.

However, our current form of church government will change only slowly, or until the current heads of the local congregations are removed - or they run away, and the congregations are scattered. Only then will we see the church in its original structure and role in the world.

Even here in the U.S. there is already a growing 'Apostolic' underground church meeting in homes, barns, sheds, back yards, and the like. God is raising up men and women of spiritual integrity to lead and feed the church as it exists in the world, not behind the grand doors of a shrine (an idol made of wood, stone and metal) that demands the sacrifice of the people. Spiritual gifting and callings are being exercised in the mutual ministering of the body to the body, without the approval or control of a local Lord, even as Paul told Timmy to finish setting in order, and instructed the congregation at Corinth in how to conduct themselves, and as seen exercised in Acts 15.

But, these were apostolic churches, not what we have today. Even so, there yet remains wolves who would take advantage of these small home missions/churches too. There is no such thing as a 'safe place'. Everyone must remain vigilant.

It is this independent spiritual movement that the established 'licensed ministry' view as a threat to their profession. And, rightly so!

Awesome...yet within the framework of organization and formality resides the protection and even cannonization of bylaws, rules, manuals and dare I say...doctrines.

Independence removes the rubber-band...

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

I think organizations with a strong hierarchial structure and a powerful central governing arm are on their way out.

Connections with likeminded brethren are too easily made these days with modern communications and conveniences.

A centralized organization just isn't as helpful as it used to be.

I agree. Folks don't want to be ruled over, but they can and will be lead.

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

The old school UPC guys see refusal of a young person to get a license with the organization as refusal to sit under leadership (rules)...

I think this changed with the split a couple of years ago, and also could have been a sentinel event in diluting the UPC as a formal organization.

There is some accountabililty in holding a license because if I hear correctly, a dude that has been married 3 times can't get a UPC license, but amazingly he is used throughout the UPC fellowship.

You really need to chill on that subject. If you have a problem with him you need to Facebook him. I know him and he is the real deal... and this is coming from a liberal. You need to look at chronology of when he was married and if he was in the church.

Its like saying the Apostle Paul was a fraud because of how he acted towards the church before he submitted himself to Christ.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

You really need to chill on that subject. If you have a problem with him you need to Facebook him. I know him and he is the real deal... and this is coming from a liberal. You need to look at chronology of when he was married and if he was in the church.

Its like saying the Apostle Paul was a fraud because of how he acted towards the church before he submitted himself to Christ.

Chill? It was one of 1000 other examples I could have used, I bet you're the only person who put a face with that example...did you get the bigger point I was trying to make? I impugned no one.

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

Chill? It was one of 1000 other examples I could have used, I bet you're the only person who put a face with that example...did you get the bigger point I was trying to make? I impugned no one.

Maybe because you created a thread in the last 72 hours focusing on him in particular.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

Maybe because you created a thread in the last 72 hours focusing on him in particular.

Apocrypha,

Since Carp was vague, let's keep it that way, even if you think you know who he's talking about.