Logos Doctrine And The UPC

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Thats funny, Paul never said that.

He said this:

Heb. 1:1-3

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

So Paul said what HE said not what YOU said he said

Matter of fact it is the same thing he told the Ephesians.

Ephesians 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Note it says the same thing as Hebrews 1:3.

Im afraid modern Oneness has boxed itself into a concept that must reinvent the words of a true Apostle.

No need to be afraid tho.

The Son Paul speaks of is simply the image of the invisible God himself. Paul makes it as plain as he can to the Colossians.

Col. 1:13-

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

This is the same as what John taught.

All things were made BY THE LOGOS.

Either the Logos is the same as the image of God that created all things or Paul and John disagree.

Which would you have it?

My guess, you have an explanation for other verses like Luke 1:35 (beginning and definition of the term Son of God), Romans 5:10 (the Son died), Heb 2:9 (the Son being less than the angels because as a human that it was, it died).

Have you noticed something: the Apostles didn't link Jesus Christ with the appearances of God as an angel in the Old testament in any sentence. Instead they always linked Jesus Christ with the creation; never with appearances or any manifestation before Bethlehem though out history.
Even in Heb 1:1-2, it clearly says that God didn't speak through his Son until the last days. If that's the case, then the appearances of the Lord as angels are not the Son of God.

Jesus was always associated with creation, and that's all we have.

Doesn't it make you question that theology?

There must be another explanation to that language than a created bodily expression at the beginning, don't you think?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Thats funny, Paul never said that.

He said this:

Heb. 1:1-3

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Mike, why does it say that through His son, He made the ages? Explain this. Also Ephesians uses the same word αἰῶνας· and therefore can you please explain Ephesians 3:9. Let me know why are you using it, and what does it mean to you?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

My guess, you have an explanation for other verses like Luke 1:35 (beginning and definition of the term Son of God), Romans 5:10 (the Son died), Heb 2:9 (the Son being less than the angels because as a human that it was, it died).

Have you noticed something: the Apostles didn't link Jesus Christ with the appearances of God as an angel in the Old testament in any sentence. Instead they always linked Jesus Christ with the creation; never with appearances or any manifestation before Bethlehem though out history.
Even in Heb 1:1-2, it clearly says that God didn't speak through his Son until the last days. If that's the case, then the appearances of the Lord as angels are not the Son of God.

Jesus was always associated with creation, and that's all we have.

Doesn't it make you question that theology?

There must be another explanation to that language than a created bodily expression at the beginning, don't you think?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Col. 1:13-

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

This is the same as what John taught.

All things were made BY THE LOGOS.

Either the Logos is the same as the image of God that created all things or Paul and John disagree.

Which would you have it?

Mike, as Esaias pointed out in his post, the Logos created all things including the Logos? Right? Because if the logos is created as you keep ramming down our throats, then with us following along we can plainly deduce that the logos created the logos. Seems complicated but that is your teaching. Also do us the favor by not comparing what you teach with the Apostle Paul.

[Michael The Disciple]

coksiw

My guess, you have an explanation for other verses like Luke 1:35 (beginning and definition of the term Son of God), Romans 5:10 (the Son died), Heb 2:9 (the Son being less than the angels because as a human that it was, it died).

Why do we need an explanation for that?

The Son died.

And then is there something wrong with the way Paul uses "Son" here?

Heb. 1:1-2

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Was Paul wrong?

Then he goes on to tell us who the Son was when he made them.

Verse 3

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The Son prexisted as the image of the invisible God.

The Logos.

Not as the eternal son of Trinity.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Why do we need an explanation for that?

The Son died.

And then is there something wrong with the way Paul uses "Son" here?

Heb. 1:1-2

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Was Paul wrong?

Then he goes on to tell us who the Son was when he made them.

Verse 3

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The Son prexisted as the image of the invisible God.

The Logos.

Not as the eternal son of Trinity.

Not as eternal as the son of the Trinity? Did God discard His logos suit?

Mike what does αἰῶνας mean in Hebrews 1:2? Why is it important to your teaching?

[Michael The Disciple]

Have you noticed something: the Apostles didn't link Jesus Christ with the appearances of God as an angel in the Old testament in any sentence.

In the Old Testament the Angel Of the Lord WAS GOD.


Its the same as saying the Logos WAS GOD.

When Jesus claimed to be the I AM he was claiming to be the Angel Of The Lord.

Exodus 3:1-6

1Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. 2And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

When Mo saw the Angel of the Lord he was seeing God.

The Angel told him he was the God of Jacob. Verse 6

Who was the God of Jacob?

On his deathbed Jacob told his sons who his Elohim was.

Genesis 48:15-16

15And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,

16The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Jacob (Israel) taught the 12 tribes his God (Elohim) was THE ANGEL OF THE LORD.

If Jesus was God in the OT the Apostles did not need to connect him with the Angel. It was common knowledge that the Angel of the Lord WAS YHWH.

We see that God and the Angel were synonomous to Israel plainly in Zech. 12:8

8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

When Israel thought of YHWH the Angel of YHWH came to mind.

If one would teach Jesus was NOT the angel of YHWH he would be teaching Jesus is not God.[/B]

Jesus was always associated with creation, and that's all we have.

Isnt that enough to associate him as God? Is he not our creator?

Our Creator was Elohim. God. The Angel of the Lord.

I refer you to my video Let Us Make Man.

[Evang.Benincasa]

https://www.christiancourier.com/art...f-jesus-christ

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Mike, why does it say that through His son, He made the ages? Explain this. Also Ephesians uses the same word αἰῶνας· and therefore can you please explain Ephesians 3:9. Let me know why are you using it, and what does it mean to you?

Why did Paul teach the Son made the ages? Well I got that from Paul the Apostle. He was teaching it. So I believed it. He does not go into any deeper explanation. He says God made the worlds or ages by his Son.

He tells us in Col. 1 that his Son as the image of the invisible God made ALL THINGS.

He made the ages and everything else according to Paul.

Why am I using it?

Well because its Paul teaching it. Why was HE USING IT?

If HE didnt say God made all things by Jesus Christ, if HE did not say all things were made by his Son I would not be teaching it.

My point is to reconcile the scriptures.

The Bible teaches God made all things. The Bible teaches the Logos made all things. The Bible teaches the Son made all things.

All these statements are true. None of them are wrong. They must be tied together in such a way they are all true.

[Michael The Disciple]

Esaias

God did NOT "form an image of Himself" as the first thing He did. He already had an image, a likeness, a "form" if you will. The very fact He existed requires He have some kind of form, some defining characteristics, some IMAGE or LIKENESS.

Can you please elaborate on what you said? God already had a form or a likeness? Apparently you do not agree with the mind-thought theory. Or do you?

What DO you believe.

I would love to hear it. If there is a more perfect way to explain the pre existing image-form than what I am teaching I need to know.