Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongues

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

So even though the scripture says we are not His without having His Spirit(Rom.8), and they could not have had His Spirit until Acts 2:4, according to Jn 7:39, you still think they were His, before they could have been His.

Yes. When Jesus prayed in the garden for the disciples, He called them His.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

Respectfullly, how can you claim they had the Spirit to some degree, when scripture says they could not have?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

Where is the scripture(s) that says they had the Spirit, even though according to Jn. 7:39 the could not have had?
To answer your question, yes I can imagine tarrying and praying and not being saved, but feeling the Lord draw me toward him. Been there, done that.

But that is the spirit of the Lord at work in your heart. It is not the full measure, or full outpouring of the spirit, but the spirit of the Lord at work, nevertheless. The Holy Ghost was already at work in the hearts of John, Elizabeth, Mary, Jesus, Zacharius and Simeon.

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

What scripture is it that says if the Lord convicts / draws a sinner, they already have His Spirit dwelling in them?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

This whole tongues issue, is just a back and forth rehash of the same arguments. But tongues people keep saying tongues is the initial evidence, where does it say that explicitly. It does not. It has been said that they say that because tongues is the only evidence given when someone received the spirit, but that is not true. Not everyone spoke in tongues.

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

How does one magnify God and speak with tongues at the same time?

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

How does one speak in tongues and prophesy at the same time?

Where in the scriptures posted does it say these were done at the same time? "speak with tongues , and magnify God" ; "they spake with tongues , and prophesied." How is this not easily understood?

I'm a big college football fan, so I'll write the same sentence structure using a football example: "Tommy handed the ball to the fullback, and blocked the defensive end." Same type of structure, but we know there's no way Tommy hands the ball off and gives a block at the same time, right? It was during the same play, but not the same, exact moment.

So why is it difficult for people to speak with tongues AND magnify God or prophesy? It doesn't mean it was done at the same moment.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by n david

Where in the scriptures posted does it say these were done at the same time? "speak with tongues , and magnify God" ; "they spake with tongues , and prophesied." How is this not easily understood?

I'm a big college football fan, so I'll write the same sentence structure using a football example: "Tommy handed the ball to the fullback, and blocked the defensive end." Same type of structure, but we know there's no way Tommy hands the ball off and gives a block at the same time, right?

So why is it difficult for people to speak with tongues AND magnify God or prophesy? It doesn't mean it was done at the same time.

OR even, tongues was a form of prophecy.

1 Cor. 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people;

When God speaks through men could that not be prophecy as well?

When we speak in tongues we pray to God without understanding. Our spirit is edified but our understanding is not. Could not the mangnifying of God be the tongues that is given.

1 Cor. 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed:

If we are speaking by the Spirit we certainly are not going to curse God. It would be logical to think that we are magnifying God with tongues.

The Bible does not say these things, but it does make sense. It certainly does not give any other sign as an example of the Holy Ghost baptism.

[Amanah]

I thought this was interesting:

http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/topics/gen..._baptismhs.cfm

Speaking in tongues is the only phenomenon mentioned every time Scripture supplies details concerning the Baptism experience. Of the five instances in Acts which recount the experience of believers being baptized in the Spirit, three supply details. Speaking in tongues is the only one that occurs each time (Acts 2, 10, 19). In the Acts 10 account, tongues is specifically mentioned as proof that "the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues" (Acts 10:45, 46). The relationship between the phenomenon and the experience cannot be ignored.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I thought this was interesting:

http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/topics/gen..._baptismhs.cfm

Speaking in tongues is the only phenomenon mentioned every time Scripture supplies details concerning the Baptism experience. Of the five instances in Acts which recount the experience of believers being baptized in the Spirit, three supply details. Speaking in tongues is the only one that occurs each time (Acts 2, 10, 19). In the Acts 10 account, tongues is specifically mentioned as proof that "the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues" (Acts 10:45, 46). The relationship between the phenomenon and the experience cannot be ignored.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I thought this was interesting:

http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/topics/gen..._baptismhs.cfm

Speaking in tongues is the only phenomenon mentioned every time Scripture supplies details concerning the Baptism experience. Of the five instances in Acts which recount the experience of believers being baptized in the Spirit, three supply details. Speaking in tongues is the only one that occurs each time (Acts 2, 10, 19). In the Acts 10 account, tongues is specifically mentioned as proof that "the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues" (Acts 10:45, 46). The relationship between the phenomenon and the experience cannot be ignored.

There is no doubt that tongues were the most common gifting of the HG. However, there are many times where the tongues are not mentioned too, where people praised God, prophesied, and were filled with joy.

A question for you: Where was it recorded that Paul spoke in tongues at the infilling of the spirit?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

There is no doubt that tongues were the most common gifting of the HG. However, there are many times where the tongues are not mentioned too, where people praised God, prophesied, and were filled with joy.

A question for you: Where was it recorded that Paul spoke in tongues at the infilling of the spirit?

It is evident that Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17) and spoke in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:18).

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Amanah

It is evident that Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17) and spoke in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:18).

In Acts 9:17, there is no mention of tongues, although yes, in 1 Cor. Paul says he does speak in tongues. But the scriptural account of his conversion does not specifically say he spoke in tongues in Acts 9.

This doesn't mean that I don't think Paul spoke in tongues at his conversion, I believe he most likely did! But the scripture doesn't reference it, along with quite a few other examples.

So the measuring stick of "speaking in tongues = salvation" cannot be upheld by just experiences spoken of in Acts. There must be more to it.

Mark 16:16-18 is the most complete, straightforward and explicit example we have of what salvation includes:

Mark 16:16-18 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

... and tongues is not part of the two things necessary for salvation, but simply one of the signs that follow. It was Jesus himself who said these words.

[Amanah]

KBTW, do you feel like you received the HG before you spoke with tongues, and if so what do you think the evidence was?

For me, I receive the HG when I was a kid, and later received the gift of tongues, the gift of tongues was very different, as I knew that it was a message for the Church and there was an interpretation.

I have prayed with many at the altar to receive the HG as evidenced by tongues and there was not the same feeling of needing an interpretation.

I have seen the Gift of Tongues in operation many times and I knew an interpretation was coming.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Amanah

KBTW, do you feel like you received the HG before you spoke with tongues, and if so what do you think the evidence was?

For me, I receive the HG when I was a kid, and later received the gift of tongues, the gift of tongues was very different, as I knew that it was a message for the Church and there was an interpretation.

I have prayed with many at the altar to receive the HG as evidenced by tongues and there was not the same feeling of needing an interpretation.

I have seen the Gift of Tongues in operation many times and I knew an interpretation was coming.

I grew up in OP, and believed that if I didn't speak in tongues, I wasn't saved. I sought the tongues, and received. I asked, and I received.

And I don't deny that there are diversities of tongues, how could I? 1 Cor. 12 explicitly says there are diversities of tongues.

What I am saying is that using "speaking in tongues" as a measuring stick to gauge if one is saved or not, is where the problem lies.