The Apostolic Light Doctrine

[consapente89]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Brother Michael,

there are areas of eschatology that I think put us on dangerous ground

* saying the resurrection has already taken place
* saying that there is no eternal judgement

so you are correct in saying that eschatology matters.


2 Timothy 2:14 Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The LORD knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the LORD must turn away from wickedness."

Hebrews 6:1-2 1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Well said.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Brother Michael,

there are areas of eschatology that I think put us on dangerous ground

* saying the resurrection has already taken place
* saying that there is no eternal judgement

so you are correct in saying that eschatology matters.


2 Timothy 2:14 Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The LORD knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the LORD must turn away from wickedness."

Hebrews 6:1-2 1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Why is pre trib rapture teaching excluded Amanah?

If we are A DECEIVER why are we NOT on dangerous ground?

Read verse 3 very carefully.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-5 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

I have bolded the word "deceive" so we will see the urgency of Pauls writing.

Let no man deceive you. If a person took this out of context like they so frequently do and applied it to the Godhead, Acts 2:38, or standards it would be to warn people and to keep them away from what they think are heretics.

But when we use it IN ITS TRUE CONTEXT.....people are not concerned! How can this be?

The TRUE CONTEXT of these verses is totally clear. He is warning about any man teaching them the day of Christ CAN HAPPEN before there is a falling away first....and.....and.....that man of sin be revealed.

Now why is the man/men who teach this NOT in danger when Paul has just called such men DECEIVERS?

[Michael The Disciple]

1ofthechosen

Knowing who God is, is one thing. Being baptized in His name receiving His Spirit is one thing. But knowing when He's coming you don't even know!

These doctrines are very specific and many witnesses. The second coming is going to happen, if you believe not you are calling God a liar. But never once did Jesus tell you specifically as He did His plan of salvation.

Hey Bro, by your other post I can see you at least lean toward post trib. Good job. Now as far as saying we dont know when Jesus is coming, that he did not make it clear:

He did tell us SPECIFICALLY-EXPRESSLY when he is coming:

Matt 24:29-31

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And Paul under inspiration of the Spirit tells us when he will NOT COME.

2 Thess 2:1-5

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

The thing we cannot know is the day or the hour.

Matt 24:36

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

So yes Jesus told us when he would come and when he would not come.

You say knowing who God is is one thing....

As if thats just simple but the timing of the rapture is unknowable.

The deepest teaching in the Bible and in the Universe is WHO GOD IS.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Heresies are dissensions from diversity of opinions, and that is what we are experiencing in this thread.
but no one in this thread is denying the resurrection or eternal judgement.

1 Corinthians 11:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you

What they ARE saying is that DECEIVERS can enter the kingdom of God. They are saying the rapture teaching is anyones guess.

They believe Trins will burn for eternity in Hell for not knowing Jesus is the Father. That because they are deceived they will be lost.

YET IF THEIR TEACHERS AND THEMSELVES ARE DECEIVERS THEY SAY THEY WILL ENTER HEAVEN.

So this is a thread showing that in their hearts they have their own version of the "light" doctrine.

They just dont have "light" on the timing of the rapture therefore God will not hold them accountable for teaching it falsely.

[Amanah]

the point is not to be fooled and lose faith.

John Gill Commentary:


2 Thessalonians 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind
Or "from your mind or sense", as the Vulgate Latin version; or "from the solidity of sense", as the Arabic version; that is, from what they had received in their minds, and was their sense and judgment, and which they had embraced as articles of faith; that they would not be like a wave of the sea, tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine; or be moved from the hope of the Gospel, from any fundamental article of it, and from that which respects the second coming of Christ particularly; and especially, that they would not be quickly and easily moved from it; see ( Galatians 1:6 )
or be troubled;
thrown into consternation and surprise, for though the coming of Christ will not be terrible to saints, as it will be to sinners; yet there is something in it that is awful and solemn, and fills with concern; and to be told of it as at that instant might be surprising and shocking: the several ways in which their minds might be troubled and distressed with such an account are enumerated by the apostle, that they might guard against them, and not be imposed upon by them:
neither by spirit;
by a prophetic spirit, by pretensions to a revelation from the Spirit, fixing the precise time of Christ's coming, which should not be heeded or attended to; since his coming will be as a thief in the night:
nor by word:
by reason and a show of it, by arguments drawn from it, which may carry in them a show of probability; by enticing words of man's wisdom; by arithmetical or astronomical calculations; or by pretensions to a word, a tradition of Christ or his apostles, as if they had received it "viva voce", by word of mouth from any of them:
nor by letter, as from us;
by forging a letter and counterfeiting their hands, for such practices began to be used very early; spurious epistles of the Apostle Paul were carried about, which obliged him to take a method whereby his genuine letters might be known; see ( 2 Thessalonians 3:17 2 Thessalonians 3:18 ) or he may have respect in this clause to his former epistle, wherein he had said some things concerning the Coming of Christ, which had been either wrongly represented, or not understood; and as if his sense was, that it would be while he and others then living were alive and on the spot: wherefore he would not have them neither give heed to any enthusiastic spirits, nor to any plausible reasonings of men, or unwritten traditions; nor to any letters in his name, or in the name of any of the apostles; nor even to his former letter to them, as though it contained any such thing in it,
as that the day of Christ is at hand;
or is at this instant just now coming on; as if it would be within that year, in some certain month, and on some certain day in it; which notion the apostle would have them by no means give into, for these reasons, because should Christ not come, as there was no reason to believe he would in so short a time, they would be tempted to disbelieve his coming at all, at least be very indifferent about it; and since if it did not prove true, they might be led to conclude there was nothing true in the Christian doctrine and religion; and besides, such a notion of the speedy coming of Christ would tend to indulge the idle and disorderly persons among them in their sloth and negligence: and now for these, and for the weighty reasons he gives in the next verse, he dissuades them from imbibing such a tenet; for though the coming of Christ is sometimes said to be drawing nigh, and to be quickly, yet so it might be, and not at that instant; besides, such expressions are used with respect to God, with whom a thousand years are as one day, and one day as a thousand years; and because the Gospel times, or times of the Messiah, are the last days, there will be no other dispensation of things until the second coming of Christ; and chiefly they are used to keep up the faith, and awaken the hope and expectation of the saints with respect to it. The Alexandrian copy, and some others, read, "the day of the Lord"; and so the Vulgate Latin version; and accordingly the Syriac and Ethiopic versions, "the day of our Lord".


https://www.biblestudytools.com/comm...nians-2-2.html

[houston]

So what happens when MTD stands before God and finds that his newspaper headline eschatology is wrong?

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

1ofthechosen





Hey Bro, by your other post I can see you at least lean toward post trib. Good job. Now as far as saying we dont know when Jesus is coming, that he did not make it clear:

He did tell us SPECIFICALLY-EXPRESSLY when he is coming:

Matt 24:29-31

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And Paul under inspiration of the Spirit tells us when he will NOT COME.

2 Thess 2:1-5

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

The thing we cannot know is the day or the hour.

Matt 24:36

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

So yes Jesus told us when he would come and when he would not come.

You say knowing who God is is one thing....

As if thats just simple but the timing of the rapture is unknowable.

The deepest teaching in the Bible and in the Universe is WHO GOD IS.

That is good Michael I see it in those terms. I can't say that it's salvational, because we have not one scripture saying that. But I do like the way you explained it.

The most important teaching in the world is who God is, and how can I find reconciliation to get back to Him. But all teaching is profitable and we should all be searching for that.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Amanah

the point is not to be fooled and lose faith.

John Gill Commentary:


2 Thessalonians 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind
Or "from your mind or sense", as the Vulgate Latin version; or "from the solidity of sense", as the Arabic version; that is, from what they had received in their minds, and was their sense and judgment, and which they had embraced as articles of faith; that they would not be like a wave of the sea, tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine; or be moved from the hope of the Gospel, from any fundamental article of it, and from that which respects the second coming of Christ particularly; and especially, that they would not be quickly and easily moved from it; see ( Galatians 1:6 )
or be troubled;
thrown into consternation and surprise, for though the coming of Christ will not be terrible to saints, as it will be to sinners; yet there is something in it that is awful and solemn, and fills with concern; and to be told of it as at that instant might be surprising and shocking: the several ways in which their minds might be troubled and distressed with such an account are enumerated by the apostle, that they might guard against them, and not be imposed upon by them:
neither by spirit;
by a prophetic spirit, by pretensions to a revelation from the Spirit, fixing the precise time of Christ's coming, which should not be heeded or attended to; since his coming will be as a thief in the night:
nor by word:
by reason and a show of it, by arguments drawn from it, which may carry in them a show of probability; by enticing words of man's wisdom; by arithmetical or astronomical calculations; or by pretensions to a word, a tradition of Christ or his apostles, as if they had received it "viva voce", by word of mouth from any of them:
nor by letter, as from us;
by forging a letter and counterfeiting their hands, for such practices began to be used very early; spurious epistles of the Apostle Paul were carried about, which obliged him to take a method whereby his genuine letters might be known; see ( 2 Thessalonians 3:17 2 Thessalonians 3:18 ) or he may have respect in this clause to his former epistle, wherein he had said some things concerning the Coming of Christ, which had been either wrongly represented, or not understood; and as if his sense was, that it would be while he and others then living were alive and on the spot: wherefore he would not have them neither give heed to any enthusiastic spirits, nor to any plausible reasonings of men, or unwritten traditions; nor to any letters in his name, or in the name of any of the apostles; nor even to his former letter to them, as though it contained any such thing in it,
as that the day of Christ is at hand;
or is at this instant just now coming on; as if it would be within that year, in some certain month, and on some certain day in it; which notion the apostle would have them by no means give into, for these reasons, because should Christ not come, as there was no reason to believe he would in so short a time, they would be tempted to disbelieve his coming at all, at least be very indifferent about it; and since if it did not prove true, they might be led to conclude there was nothing true in the Christian doctrine and religion; and besides, such a notion of the speedy coming of Christ would tend to indulge the idle and disorderly persons among them in their sloth and negligence: and now for these, and for the weighty reasons he gives in the next verse, he dissuades them from imbibing such a tenet; for though the coming of Christ is sometimes said to be drawing nigh, and to be quickly, yet so it might be, and not at that instant; besides, such expressions are used with respect to God, with whom a thousand years are as one day, and one day as a thousand years; and because the Gospel times, or times of the Messiah, are the last days, there will be no other dispensation of things until the second coming of Christ; and chiefly they are used to keep up the faith, and awaken the hope and expectation of the saints with respect to it. The Alexandrian copy, and some others, read, "the day of the Lord"; and so the Vulgate Latin version; and accordingly the Syriac and Ethiopic versions, "the day of our Lord".


https://www.biblestudytools.com/comm...nians-2-2.html

Amanah, This is typical. Gill does not even MENTION the point Paul was trying to make! No mention of the man of sin. Not one.

But remember. This is not particularly a thread to prove Post trib. It is to prove Apostolics believe in the "light" doctrine. I believe you are promoting it yourself.

You are a post trib right? But you see no danger of someone being a pre trib. Why? Are they not teaching false doctrine?

Why will they get a free pass when the Trins must burn in Hell throughout the eternal ages if THEY are mistaken in their doctrine?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by houston

So what happens when MTD stands before God and finds that his newspaper headline eschatology is wrong?

Nothing at all according to the Apostolic "light" doctrine. It will simply be a matter of I didnt understand it and was mistaken. I then would enter Heavens gates!

Meanwhile the Trins and Arians would be receiving eternal torment in Hell because they did not understand and were mistaken about Jesus being the Father.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by houston

So what happens when MTD stands before God and finds that his newspaper headline eschatology is wrong?

Nothing, because God is going to tell Mike, "Hey nice beard, bro!"