Should we still observe the sabbath?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jito463

You know, sometimes I wonder if you and Bro. Benincasa just troll to try and draw out an argument.

Wonder no more. Its called a lack of an argument, and a plain inability to defend your position. I notice that I didn't post in this thread ( that I can remember ) but find that I'm being mentioned to defend your argument? No, I'm not trolling when I point out that you have a weak argument. Even if I was a troll, you would then be able to shut me up with having a strong argument. The troll's inability to understand is moot, because you aren't trying to teach a troll, but merely pointing out that their arguments are filled with flaws. You bringing me up, and claiming that Esaias and I are in someone way playing some game, only proves you are unable to strengthen your position. You all are in this discussion to do one thing. Prove your position is Biblically valid. If you can't do that, then Honey Child, it's no one's fault but your own.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jito463

I don't see how it's contradictory.

I truly don't see what you're trying to say. How is it contradictory? Maybe I'm not explaining it well enough?

You seem hung up on this idea of adding to the law, rather than the idea of it becoming a greater law. More restrictive in one sense, but also more freeing in another way.

I don't see what you mean. Expanding on the existing law is not the same as adding to it.

You know, sometimes I wonder if you and Bro. Benincasa just troll to try and draw out an argument. I don't really know if you actually don't understand what I'm saying, or if you're just pretending to not understand so you can antagonize me about it. I don't know if I can explain it any clearer than I already stated it.

It's ok.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Where did the apostles teach "The former laws of God are abolished, here's the new set of laws"?

Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

1 Timothy 1:9-10
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

God makes us righteous by placing His law upon our hearts.

Matthew 19:7-8
They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, -- Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

There are many complexities regarding the Old Testament written laws. The law of God is not complicated, love God and serve Him with all of our heart & love neighbor as ourselves. We are not meant to ignorantly obey a bunch laws that hold no meaning to us. We actually know God by His indwelling Spirit and we are connected now to the statutes of God. I am not sinning because I go to church on a Saturday or Sunday. I don’t know if it is even possible to equate the correct day of our week with the ancient 7th day. I understand that Saturday ends our weekly calendars, but there is probably a lot that can be said about the progressions of calendars over the last 2000 years.

1. This is what you have been failing to prove, that there are indeed "two sets of laws". Yes, the Bible talks about God's law being written on stone. Yes the Bible talks about God's law being written in the heart. But where do you get this idea that those are two separate sets of laws? What would incline you to think they are not in fact the same law of God, once written on stone, now (under the new covenant) written upon the heart?

Had Abraham been given 600+ commandments when he was commanded to obey God’s Torah? That comprehensive list of laws was later given to the Jews only. The apostles actually refuted the physical circumcision for the gentile believers and many other things as well.

2. What does "fulfilled" mean when it comes to laws? You seem to think that when a law is "fulfilled" it is thereby abolished and done away with. Is this true? Let's see:

If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
(Jas 2:8)

If you fulfill this law, do you then become free from any obligation to that law? What does fulfill mean here? Does it not mean to obey, to perform, to execute, to carry out? So that if you perform the law "thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself", you have "fulfilled" that law? Then what? You can stop loving your neighbour? Or does "fulfill" not rather mean to perform and continue to perform? That is, you love your neighbour and continue to do so? Obviously the latter. Therefore, Jesus "fulfilling the law" does not mean the law is thereby abolished. It means instead that He performed it, and yea indeed He continued to perform it all the days of His life. He also said "think not that I am come to destroy the law". So whatever we think "fulfill" means, we are NOT ALLOWED to think it means "the law has been done away with or abolished or destroyed". And by the way, the "royal law according to the scripture" about loving your neighbour as yourself is Leviticus 19:18. Once again we see the new testament exhorting us to obey the law of God (this time straight out of Leviticus of all places).

What I mean by fulfilled, is the law is completed by having been written in our hearts. I don’t have to be told anymore not to kill because it is an impossibility if I love that person. Many of the OT laws where not even morality based, but where ceremonial. The Sabbath is uniquely both. Keeping the Sabbath is a morality issue in not overworking one another, but is ceremonial by the sacraments of things like reciting the law. In the NT we now view everyday as holy and we don’t esteem any day greater than another. Our rest is in the Holy Ghost.

3. The law of God given to Israel was meant to be an example to the other nations so they would follow suit:

Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
(Deu 4:5-8)

The nations of the earth are expected to submit to and obey the law of God:

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.
(Isa 2:2-5)

I like the way Jesus says it in John:

John 13:35
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

You can keep an endless amount of statutes without love, but if you have love you no longer need and endless amount of statutes. If you love someone, you will not do anything but good to them. This is what draws men to God. You start naming off a list of laws and statutes that people are to obey, you will run people away from God, but if you show people a demonstration of God’s love in your heart you will draw them.

4. By "the spiritual kingdom of God" in contrast with "physical nation of Israel" you are forgetting one single key important point: the new covenant was made with the same people that the old covenant was made with, the physical nation of Israel:

I don’t know if our disagreements are somewhat just Symantec’s here. The Church is made up of Jews and Gentiles. After the New birth we are all seed of Abraham. No matter what our physical ethnicity. There are the people of Israel today that live in the physical land Israel that maybe called Jews, but are not that kingdom of God. I think we probably are agreeing on this for the most part.

The liberty we have, gives Those Old Testament Jews the freedom to still practice much of their traditions, and we see that play out in the New Testament, only it was rebuked when the Jewish traditions conflicted with the word of God.

Continued to next post…

[good samaritan]

1. The law of God is the entire Bible. It details commandments, statutes, judgments, as well as judicial decisions regarding the application of God's law (via the prophets and other Scriptural examples). It does generally cover the entire gamut of human existence, though many things are left to our own choices. Do you have a problem with God telling you what to eat or not to eat, or how you shall dress, or how you shall manage agriculture? Are you "not your own, but bought with a price"? Does not God have absolute authority to decide anything He wants to decide about how you shall live your life? Is it even your life to live? What happened to "99 and a half won't do"?

The Bible most definitely is the word of God. I don’t have a problem with God telling me to do anything, but I am not under any obligation to follow all of those OT commands we have mentioned. I am sure they had practical reasons for being given to Israel, and also where a shadow of greater things to come. If what you are saying is true, would we not need to recite the Torah daily out of fear of breaking the least command. Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but if your are seriously saying that we are still suppose to be keeping the entire law of Moses then what did Jesus fulfill by coming?

2. The apostle Paul affirms the continuity of God's instructions regarding food:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
(1Ti 4:1-5)

See that? The "creatures of God" which are created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth, are those which are "sanctified by the word of God". So the apostle Paul himself recognised that the foods we eat are to be those which are sanctified not by prayer alone (even though many Christians today don't even pray over their food anymore), but also by "the word of God". Where do we find in the word of God what foods have been sanctified (set apart for consumption)?

Are you not seeing the part you bolded?

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused.

Why would Paul say that and the turn around and say it sanctified by prayer and by being Old Testament clean. The vision of the unclean animals that Peter had was not only dealing with people. God would have never asked Peter to kill and eat something that His word still prohibited.

3. Regarding multiple fabric blends, the command is a prohibition against wearing what is known as "linsey-wooley", a linen/wool blend:

Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.
(Lev 19:19)

Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.
(Deu 22:11)

Why? Not sure, but it appears likely that the High Priest's Temple clothing included a mixture of wool and linen. So the common people were forbidden from donning a garment made in the same fashion as the High Priest's, much like the common people were forbidden to make a copy of the anointing oil used in the Temple. I don't know anyone who wears linen and wool together in a single garment, and don't even know where one could buy such an article of clothing here in the US. And even if such were a thing, I don't see why it would be a big deal to avoid wearing such. After all, how many people avoid wearing red, or lace, for religious reasons?

I see a principle in this that similar to the clean and unclean. It seems much about separation. In the NT church we are to be separate from the world and not to be mingled together with it. I personally don’t usually know what any of my clothes are made of with exception for a wool suit. I would find it burdensome to have to research what clothes where made out of before I could wear them. Of course I believe that there is some importance in how dress. I would not want anyone in my family to dress in a way that causes someone to lust or envy. I also believe that some clothes are cultural viewed as feminine and masculine and we should dress accordingly.

Deuteronomy 22:10
Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

The NT takes those Old Testament laws and gives a greater purpose for them.

4. The mingled seed issue does not prevent the creation of a garden. God Himself created the first garden, and a garden is a location set aside for the propagation of various plants. The prohibition is primarily regarding "the field", but also applies to one's vineyard. The purpose is to prevent hybridization and ruining the crops. I don't know any farmer or vintner who plants say corn and wheat indiscriminately in the same field. What a mess that would be! (There is a debate however concerning "permaculture" which basically means planting numerous different types of complementary plants together in a food plot, but it is debatable as to whether or not falls under the prohibition. It is also debatable as to whether or not permaculture is even really effective.)

Do you really think God is concerned with how plant our fields today. I agree there maybe some practicality to avoiding hybridization and it ruining our seed. There is a much greater purpose in not mingling seed.

Deuteronomy 22:9
Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled.

Matthew 13:24-30
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? -- He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Do you have a problem with God teaching you how to grow food? Or do you think you know better?

I grow a large garden every year and it amazes me how awesome Gods design is. we plant many of our seeds indoors in the early spring and it is amazing watching those seeds pop. The Lord uses the principles of the harvest to convey many deeper messages regarding man’s eternal soul, but I will continue to plant rows of tomatoes, corn, peas, beans, peppers okra, squash, cucumbers and even some cantaloupes and watermelons in my garden. Spiritually I only want that good seed of God though.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

(part two)

If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
(Jas 2:8-11)

1. From this we see the principle of the "unity of moral condition". Meaning, there is no such thing as a "mixed moral character" in an individual. A person is not "partially good and partially bad". A person is not "partially obedient and partially disobedient". A person is either obedient, or disobedient. The same is true in all human jurisprudence. If you do not murder, but you commit armed robbery, you are still a criminal. Same with the divine law: if you don't commit adultury, but you do commit murder, you are guilty of sin, you are a "transgressor of the law". The unity of moral condition is a idea that unfortunately many Christians do not understand, but desperately need to.

I agree with this, and I am not debating whether or not sin still exists.
I am not saying we no longer have laws, but instead that those Mosaic laws are no longer governing us. Our righteousness is straight from God. Here is another verse similar to the verse you are using.

Matthew 7:15-21
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

2. Notice that James, a new testament author, writing to Christians, tells them that if they keep a bunch of commandments, but break one of them, they are still classified as transgressors of the law. The two commandments he chose to illustrate his point are irrelevent, it could just as well be "if you do not commit adultery, but profane the Sabbath, you are become a transgressor of the law." The important thing to notice, however, is that he as a Christian tells Christians that if they transgress God's law they COMMIT SIN and are "transgressors of the law". He did not seem to have any idea such as some have, that God's law was repealed and some new set of laws were put in its place.

Coincidentally he didn’t just use any laws, but he used moral based laws. He didn’t bring up wearing wool blends. He brought up adultery and murder. Of course I believe those things are still sin. They are based upon the royal law of love. That is the law written upon our hearts. When you receive the Holy Ghost do you instantly get a revelation of those 600+ laws of Moses? Or does your heart get flooded with the love of God. That Is what it means by him writing those laws upon our hearts.

I am a nervous person by nature. I have always dealt with fears and insecurities, but when I received the Holy Ghost I received a boldness to. witness that was predicated upon that royal law of love.

1. Liberty is not liberty to transgress the law. Since sin is transgression of the law, by claiming that you have Christian liberty are therefore free to transgress the Fourth Commandment, you are actually claiming that your Christian liberty gives you permission to sin. Standing fast in the liberty of Christ is standing fast in FREEDOM FROM SIN:

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
(Joh 8:34-36)

I am not saying that we cannot sin or that we have liberty to sin, but I am disagreeing with what sin actually is to the church. We can still violate that law written upon our hearts.


2

. The issue in Galatia had to do with people demanding the (gentile) Galatians be circumcised, which is neither commanded nor recommended by either the law or the Gospel. Nobody is arguing for anyone to be physically circumcised here. Paul's argument is not against people who want to obey God, but against Judaizers trying to force circumcision upon gentiles as a condition of conversion to Christ.

The law did demand circumcision.

John 7:23
If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

If we are still under mosaic law we are still to be physically circumcised, but we are not.

Conclusion: Your response did not in fact prove your case, you did not prove there are two sets of legislation, one for the old covenant, and one for the new. Your reasoning logically leads to inconsistencies and contradictions (like the idea that as Christians we are free from moral obligation to obey God).

Do you not find it curious that so many people actually believe that obeying God is somehow unChristian? Makes you wonder which "Jesus" they have actually been listening to...

The Holy Ghost gives a deeper sense of morality than the law of Moses ever could. I don’t know what you mean by the last statement. The scripture warns us of wolves in sheeps clothing and false prophets. It was often directed at those Jews who where trying to turn Gods people away from God’s grace to a justification by works. I have seen a holiness competition for who has the highest bar or who has the greatest revelation of Gods truth, but the gospel is so simple that babes can receive it. The mosaic law condemns people, but it doesn’t give life. I 100% believe if people will obey the gospel and continue in the Spirit is no way they are going to be violators of Gods law.

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Psalm 19:1-14 KJV
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. [2] Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [3] There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. [4] Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, [5] Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. [6] His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. [7] The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. [8] The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. [9] The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. [10] More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. [11] Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. [12] Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. [13] Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins ; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. [14] Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.

If the law of Moses is what David is meaning is forever, than why did Jesus say that there was compromises made in the law of Moses because of the hardness of man’s heart:

Matthew 19:7-9
They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, -- Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

The law of God written in our hearts is forever, but the laws
Of Moses was only to bring us to Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:24-25
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The law did demand circumcision.

John 7:23
If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

If we are still under mosaic law we are still to be physically circumcised, but we are not.

Ok, this convinces me that you are either not understanding anything I am saying, or you are not reading what I am saying.

The Bible does not REQUIRE GENTILES TO BE CIRCUMCISED, neither the law of Moses nor the Gospel require the circumcision of gentiles. Yes, if they wanted to eat the passover, but other than that? NO.

[good samaritan]

[good samaritan]

Can anyone tell me how to share a YouTube link?

[diakonos]

Really? That is your source?