Are we are under the commands of the first 5 books

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Hebrews 4:3
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

I have thought about it plenty.

The Sabbath brings rest and the law brings bondage.

Your message is to bring people who have been set free into bondage.

YOU SAID "the law identifies sin". That of course is correct. But when the law identifies YOUR sin, all of a sudden "does not apply."

Neat how that works.

My message is this: Get right with God. In other words, repentance. And that remission (forgiveness) of sins is available through Jesus Christ.

Not sure what YOUR message is, but it honestly sounds like "God has repented from calling certain things sin that just so happen to coincide with some of my favorite habits. And that Jesus came to set me free from God's commandments - or at least the ones I don't like."

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by diakonos

I’m not a law keeper, or even a sabbath (Saturday) keeper… but… really? The law brings bondage?

I wonder which god is most likely to suggest that obeying God is bondage, but doing the opposite of what God said to do is "freedom"?

[Esaias]

John 8:34-36 KJV
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. [35] And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. [36] If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Free from what? God's commands? Or free from sin (freedom from breaking God's commands)?

Galatians 4:24-25 KJV
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. [25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Notice, it is NOT the commandments of God that bring bondage. Rather it is Jerusalem under the OLD COVENANT which is in bondage. What kind of bondage? And why?

Romans 2:22-29 KJV
Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? [23] Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? [24] For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. [25] For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26] Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27] And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? [28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Jerusalem and the Old Covenant people were SINNERS IN DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD'S COMMANDMENTS. Therefore they were in BONDAGE. What matters is OBEDIENCE, the INWARD CIRCUMCISION OF THE HEART, not the flesh. Again,

Hebrews 10:5-9 KJV
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: [6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. [7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. [8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein ; which are offered by the law; [9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The old covenant with its sacrifices and offerings could not produce real actual functional righteousness and obedience. The new covenant through the blood of Christ DOES. So He takes away the first to establish the second. The inefficient sacrifice of animals is replaced by the doing of the will of God through Christ. As it is written:

Hebrews 8:7-10 KJV
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

John 8:34-36 KJV
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. [35] And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. [36] If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Free from what? God's commands? Or free from sin (freedom from breaking God's commands)?

Romans 8:1-2
1......There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2......For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Galatians 4:24-25 KJV
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. [25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Notice, it is NOT the commandments of God that bring bondage. Rather it is Jerusalem under the OLD COVENANT which is in bondage. What kind of bondage? And why?

First off, the passage doesn’t say Jerusalem is in bondage, it says agar is. Agar is a type of the Old Covenant (which includes its laws) that gendereth bondage.

Just to have to remember the upward of 600 laws was a burden. Not to mention it was an impossibility for anyone to keep the law of the Old Covenant. If people could have kept it then it would never have needed to be replaced. We don’t have to memorize Old Testament commandments in order to obey God. The apostles never taught Gentiles to keep mosaic law.

Romans 2:22-29 KJV
Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? [23] Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? [24] For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. [25] For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26] Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27] And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? [28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Jerusalem and the Old Covenant people were SINNERS IN DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD'S COMMANDMENTS. Therefore they were in BONDAGE. What matters is OBEDIENCE, the INWARD CIRCUMCISION OF THE HEART, not the flesh

Go back a few verses and recognize who he is talking to.

Romans 2:17
Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

Paul was reprimanding those Jews that where boasting of the law while violating it. He went on to say that gentiles who don’t have the (mosaic) law, still keep the righteousness of the law. I highly doubt he is speaking of Sabbaths and feast days here. No doubt he is talking about treating people right Aka loving thy neighbor.

Hebrews 10:5-9 KJV
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: [6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. [7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. [8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein ; which are offered by the law; [9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The old covenant with its sacrifices and offerings could not produce real actual functional righteousness and obedience. The new covenant through the blood of Christ DOES. So He takes away the first to establish the second. The inefficient sacrifice of animals is replaced by the doing of the will of God through Christ. As it is written:

Hebrews 8:7-10 KJV
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Amen!!!

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I wonder which god is most likely to suggest that obeying God is bondage, but doing the opposite of what God said to do is "freedom"?

Yeah, I get that. I’m sick of the religious talk that people spew out. You raise a good point. What people willfully defy- it is “bondage.” What they want to do is “freedom.” Take a stand and you’re “religious,” while you should be focused on a “personal relationship” with Jesus, or whatever. And personal it is, the personal “Jesus” lets people live however they want. Whatever is convenient to that persons whims. I’m ranting here, I need sleep.


I don’t sleep much during the week. I spend most of Saturday sleeping. Does that count as keeping the sabbath? Kinda, TIC. , but, really!?

[good samaritan]

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

[votivesoul]

This only would I like to know:

What business does Paul, thirty years into the Church Age, have quoting from Exodus 22:28, when dealing with the High Priest in Acts 23:5, especially if the laws and commands of the Pentateuch are no longer binding, Paul himself being held up as the paragon of proof that such is so?

Exodus 22:28 (ESV)

28 “You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.

Acts 23:5 (ESV),

5 And Paul said, “I did not know, brothers, that he was the high priest, for it is written, ‘You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.’”

Furthermore, why does Paul appeal to Deuteronomy 13:5 when telling the Corinthians to ex-communicate a fornicator, if the laws and commands of the Pentateuch are no longer binding, Paul himself being held up as the paragon of proof that such is so?

Deuteronomy 13:5 (ESV),

5 So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

1 Corinthians 5:13 (ESV),

13 ...“Purge the evil person from among you.”

Furthermore, why does Paul appeal to Genesis 2:24 when telling the Ephesians that a husband and a wife shall become one flesh, if the laws and commands of the Pentateuch are no longer binding, Paul himself being held up as the paragon of proof that such is so?

Genesis 2:24 (ESV),

24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Ephesians 5:31 (ESV),

31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

And lest we forget, why does Paul, in Ephesians 6:1, appeal to Exodus 20:12 to teach us that children should be obedient to their parents, if the laws and commands of the Pentateuch are no longer binding, Paul himself being held up as the paragon of proof that such is so?

Exodus 20:12 (ESV),

12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you...

Ephesians 6:1-3 (ESV),

1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3 “that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.”

Furthermore, why does Paul appeal to Deuteronomy 30:14 when telling the Romans that the word which we preach is near us, in our hearts and mouths, if the laws and commands of the Pentateuch are no longer binding, Paul himself being held up as the paragon of proof that such is so?

Deuteronomy 30:14 (ESV),

14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

Romans 10:8 (ESV),

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim)...

Now, this last one is interesting, because in Deuteronomy 30:14, Moses tells the people that the word is near them, in their mouths and hearts. Why? So they can do it, that is, obey the laws and commands of God in the Pentateuch.

Here is the context:

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 (ESV),

11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

And Paul wrote that the word which we preach, that is, the word of faith, are the very words he quoted from in Deuteronomy 30:14, thus indicating that he, like Moses, believes the laws and commands of the Pentateuch are not too hard that we cannot obey them.

There is, therefore, nothing stopping anyone from obeying the laws and commands of the Pentateuch (particularly since the power of the Holy Spirit has been given to us so that we can do so) except for an inclination, that is, unwillingness, not to.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

This only would I like to know:

What business does Paul, thirty years into the Church Age, have quoting from Exodus 22:28, when dealing with the High Priest in Acts 23:5, especially if the laws and commands of the Pentateuch are no longer binding, Paul himself being held up as the paragon of proof that such is so?

Exodus 22:28 (ESV)

I would assume there was multiple reasons for this:

1) Paul was a Jew. Just because Paul became a Christian didn't mean that he just threw away all his teachings. Naturally, he would have continued in much of Jewish tradition and was at liberty to do so.

Philippians 3:4-6
4......Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5......Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6......Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.


2) Reverence to leadership is a timeless concept This Old Testament command (like many mosaic laws) was reiterated in the apostles' teaching. Therefore we have it as apostolic doctrine.

Romans 13:1-7
1......Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2......Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3......For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4......For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5......Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath but also for conscience sake.
6......For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7......Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

3) Paul employed wisdom in dealing with the views of those that he accompanied. Paul encouraged Timothy to be circumcised, although he had previously contended that it was unnecessary for believers.

1 Corinthians 9:19-21
19......For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20......And unto the Jews, I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21......To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

[good samaritan]

Furthermore, why does Paul appeal to Deuteronomy 13:5 when telling the Corinthians to ex-communicate a fornicator, if the laws and commands of the Pentateuch are no longer binding, Paul himself being held up as the paragon of proof that such is so?

Deuteronomy 13:5 (ESV),
Quote:
5 So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
1 Corinthians 5:13 (ESV),

Quote:
13 ...“Purge the evil person from among you.”

I am sorry but I am missing where Paul appealed to Deuteronomy 13:5.

Deuteronomy 13:1-5
1......If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2......And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3......Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4......Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5......And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Deuteronomy 13:5 is a totally different context. It deals with a false prophet who entices Israel to go after strange gods.

Ya’ll are trying to fit a square block in a round whole. He does use the law concerning the feast of unleavened bread as a principle.

1 Corinthians 5:6-9
6......Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

The old leaven is to be purged out
7......Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8......Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9......I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

This in no way brings us under mosaic law. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is the law we serve. We are not to be mixed up with anyone that lives in a way that would jeopardize that relationship with Him.

Interestingly those Judaizers that was troubling the church in Galatia Paul said the same thing.

Galatians 5:10-12
10......I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
11......And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12......I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

[good samaritan]

Furthermore, why does Paul appeal to Genesis 2:24 when telling the Ephesians that a husband and a wife shall become one flesh, if the laws and commands of the Pentateuch are no longer binding, Paul himself being held up as the paragon of proof that such is so?

Genesis 2:24 (ESV),

Quote:
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Ephesians 5:31 (ESV),

Quote:
31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

You are 100% correct we must love our wives. It was taught in the first 5 books and all the rest of our Bible. The law of love is a law that is timeless and established all throughout the whole Bible. Paul goes on from there to show us the representation that marriage has with the bride of Christ. I am thankful that our walk with Jesus is no longer a list of rules to only be punished by our failures, but we now have a faith relationship with Him.

And lest we forget, why does Paul, in Ephesians 6:1, appeal to Exodus 20:12 to teach us that children should be obedient to their parents, if the laws and commands of the Pentateuch are no longer binding, Paul himself being held up as the paragon of proof that such is so?

Exodus 20:12 (ESV),

Quote:
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you...
Ephesians 6:1-3 (ESV),

Quote:
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3 “that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.”

Another law of love. It will always be right for children to obey their parents. I don't see where any of this proves we are under the mosaic law? Because of this we must observe feast days, Sabbath's, dietary restrictions, etc....