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  #1  
Old 10-11-2008, 08:42 AM
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SOUNWORTHY SOUNWORTHY is offline
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Re: "Kill Him", "Treason", "Off With His Head!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1399 View Post
you know, you're right. The 2000 election showed just how polarized our country had become. You would think after 9/11 that our country would be not so polarized.

However, I think our country has become even more polarized and I think money and class is at the root of the polarization.

Many folks blame the current Admin for the destruction of America's middle class. I'm not sure if we should blame any one, not sure if it does any good.

All (or definitely most) of the issues that divide the citizens of this country can be traced to money and class.
More like greed and dependency. I'm not sure what you mean by class, this isn't India. Yes there are wealthy people and there are those who are too stinkin lazy to work that resents them and thinks the rich owes them a living. They'd rather sit around on their duff's and complain and collect their payments from the government or hope for a welfare system that will pay their rent, car payments, and medical. There are young guys who sit along the street begging for food. They could join the military like you and I and at least receive the benefits offered. I salute you for your efforts.
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Old 10-11-2008, 07:11 PM
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Re: "Kill Him", "Treason", "Off With His Head!"

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Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY View Post
More like greed and dependency. I'm not sure what you mean by class, this isn't India. Yes there are wealthy people and there are those who are too stinkin lazy to work that resents them and thinks the rich owes them a living. They'd rather sit around on their duff's and complain and collect their payments from the government or hope for a welfare system that will pay their rent, car payments, and medical. There are young guys who sit along the street begging for food. They could join the military like you and I and at least receive the benefits offered. I salute you for your efforts.

It makes me beyond angry to ride through the streets of Baltimore on the way to my house and see what I see whenever I go up there!


I just wish time travel was possible, so I can personally escort them to the times of my Dad and Grandfolks so they can see what they are throwing away.
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Old 10-11-2008, 07:15 PM
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Re: "Kill Him", "Treason", "Off With His Head!"

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Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY View Post
More like greed and dependency. .
My reference to class is based off of the well-discussed phenomenon of the disappearance or destruction of America's middle class.

The "experts" have said that the last ten years or so has seen a significant shrinking of this group of Americans, with the divide between the haves and the have nots greater now than it has ever been in a long, long while.
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:37 AM
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Re: "Kill Him", "Treason", "Off With His Head!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1399 View Post
you know, you're right. The 2000 election showed just how polarized our country had become. You would think after 9/11 that our country would be not so polarized.

However, I think our country has become even more polarized and I think money and class is at the root of the polarization.

Many folks blame the current Admin for the destruction of America's middle class. I'm not sure if we should blame any one, not sure if it does any good.

All (or definitely most) of the issues that divide the citizens of this country can be traced to money and class.
I blame liberal elites, the media and Hollywood for the fracturing of America. They are the ones who have become shrill and damaging to America. They are the ones that are shouting about things like "the destruction of the middle class"

I sure would like someone to show me some data that says the middle class has been destroyed!. I work in a building with well over a thousand middle class people. Every last one of these folks have MORE not less purchasing power than the middle class folk from any previous generation.

this notion that the middle class has been or is being destroyed is laughable.
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  #5  
Old 10-16-2008, 05:48 AM
OP_Carl OP_Carl is offline
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Re: "Kill Him", "Treason", "Off With His Head!"

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Originally Posted by OP_Carl View Post
I am totally against the bailout and the empowerment of the treasury secretary.
Thanks to McCain-Feingold, we haven't been given any good choices.

I am familiar with the story of the Boston Massacre and Crispus Attucks. What is the pertinence here?


Are you familiar with the level of evil ascribed to redistributionist thinking by proponents of natural law? Do you understand how the Civil rights act of 1964 repealed natural law in America, and the voting rights act repealed our original form of government - a limited republic - and replaced it with democracy? Democracy being merely the tyranny of the majority, and not "freedom" as they are often associated together.

Coerced collectivism is wrong by a spectrum of moral codes. You may take your pick. It has failed everywhere that it has been attempted.

I consider every last Obama supporter to be either seriously deluded or an agent of communism. (There are a lot of the first category, thanks to the public schools) I think Obama hopes to wreck this country and attempt to create a socialist utopia. There is enough evidence to connect those dots.

However what he will have wrought is oppression and misery, as centrally-planned economies simply cannot react, and incentive is removed for innovation, excellence, and hard work. The fringes of this are already evidence in the wreckage of LBJ's "Great Society" welfare state, which has nearly demolished the nuclear family in the black community.

I recognize that the patronage system we see at work here at the end of the Bush administration is an equally proven civilization-ender. McCain's track record of bucking the party line is our only hope here. And Palin's willingness to root out corruption in her own party is a breath of fresh air.

Attempting to achieve equality of outcome, instead of equality of opportunity, is for dreamers and retards. Politics by guilt is a recipe for disaster. Politics by founding principles for me, please.

Lord Bless you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstew View Post
OP, could you elaborate a little and also tell me what form of government you prefer? Do you oppose the Civil Rights Act and the voting acts?
I prefer a limited republic that empowers responsible citizens to govern themselves and achieve their full potential.

I recognize that much that was necessary and good was accomplished by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965. My opposition to the Civil Rights Act virtually mirrors that of Barry Goldwater; it is an issue of constitutionality.

I have included some links for you to read about economics and unintended consequences of policy. This first one is quite lengthy, but one of my favorites nevertheless:

Frederic Bastiat on What is seen and what is not seen

Our constitution codified natural rights and natural law. Natural Law, the Constitution, and Judicial Review

The True Meaning of Civil Rights

Barry Goldwater was not well understood. Here is
An interesting essay on Goldwater

Here is an excerpt from his speech explaining his vote from the floor of the United States Senate on June 18, 1964:
Quote:
I wish to make myself perfectly clear. The two portions of this bill to which I have constantly and consistently voiced objections, and which are of such overriding significance that they are determinative of my vote on the entire measure, are those which would embark the Federal government on a regulatory course of action with regard to private enterprise in the area of so-called 'public accommodations' and in the area of employment - to be more specific, Titles II and VII of the bill.

I find no constitutional basis for the exercise of Federal regulatory authority in either of these two areas; and I believe the attempted usurpation of such power to be a grave threat to the very essence of our basic system of government, namely, that of a constitutional republic in which fifty sovereign states have reserved to themselves and to the people those powers not specifically granted to the central or Federal government.

If it is the wish of the American people that the Federal government should be granted the power to regulate in these two areas and in the manner contemplated by this bill, then I say that the Constitution should be so amended by the people as to authorize such action in accordance with the procedures for amending the Constitution which that great document itself prescribes.

I say further that for this great legislative body to ignore the Constitution and the fundamental concepts of our governmental system is to act in a manner which could ultimately destroy the freedom of all American citizens, including the freedoms of the very persons whose feelings and whose liberties are the major subject of this legislation.

My basic objection to this measure is, therefore, constitutional.

I repeat again: I am unalterably opposed to discrimination of any sort and I believe that though the problem is fundamentally one of the heart, some law can help - but not law that embodies features like these, provisions which fly in the face of the Constitution and which require for their effective execution the creation of a police state. And so, because I am unalterably opposed to the destruction of our great system of government and the loss of our God-given liberties, I shall vote "No" on this bill.

My concern is not with this single legislative moment. My concern is not with a single faction of our citizens, no matter their power. My concern is with the fullness of this nation, with the fullness of freedom for everyone who lives in it and who will be born in it.

And I say that the general welfare must be spoken of now, despite the special appeals to special welfare. This is the time to attend to the liberties of all - not just to the demands of a few.

There is my concern. And this is where I stand.
If you keep Bastiat's postulates in mind while reading Goldwater's hauntingly accurate prophetic utterance in the bolded paragraph, you will come as close as you can get to understanding my viewpoint on government, social policy, and economics.

I had my wires crossed a bit, I think, when mentioning the 1965 voting rights act. I believe I was thinking of something else, and cannot now remember what it was. Upon review, I don't find much objectionable about that particular act.

I hope to convey and pursuade that natural law and lassez-faire are preferable to heavy-handed social policy, redistribution, and central control. I see the 1965 Civil Rights act as a touchstone along the journey to repeal natural rights for the individual, and replace them with collective rights for special interest groups. We are already starting to experience the tyranny of the majority. Look at the Kelo ruling.

There is a good article by Thomas Sowell regarding property rights. I'm haven't got a link for it and I need to go, but it contains a deep truism: "Neither 'property' nor the value of property is a physical thing . Property is a set of defined options."
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  #6  
Old 10-16-2008, 10:22 AM
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SOUNWORTHY SOUNWORTHY is offline
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Re: "Kill Him", "Treason", "Off With His Head!"

Getting back to the McCain rally. The following was in the St. Louis Dispatch this morning. One part I found especially interesting.

Critics in media conveniently ignore the angry left
BY COLLEEN CARROLL CAMPBELL
Thursday, Oct. 16 2008
After eight years of treating the radical left's foaming-at-the-mouth fury
against President George W. Bush as a respectable political posture, America's
media establishment has awakened to the dangers of partisan outrage — on the
right.

Recent media reports have bemoaned the "angry" tone of rallies for Republicans
Sen. John McCain and Gov. Sarah Palin at which "rowdy crowds" have staged
"surreal scenes" featuring what one Washington Post report described as an
"outpouring of raw emotion rare in a presidential race." Apparently, the author
of that last phrase never attended a rally for Sen. Barack Obama, where
supporters have been known to faint and weep upon glimpsing The One.


Attuned as these reporters are to the wrath of the right, they seem to have
overlooked the rageaholic tendencies of the left. In the past week alone,
groups of Obama supporters spray-painted "Republican means slavery" on the door
of a South Carolina GOP office, used a Molotov cocktail to torch a McCain yard
sign in Portland, Ore., and arrived at a Palin rally in Pennsylvania sporting
T-shirts that described the governor as a four-letter word unprintable in a
family newspaper.

Such nastiness is dispiriting but unsurprising at the end of a hard-fought
race. When it gets this close to Election Day, fringe characters inevitably
emerge on both ends of the political spectrum.

Yet only one end of that spectrum is drawing the collective ire of mainstream
media reporters and commentators. Obama, who recently exhorted supporters to
confront Independents and Republicans and "argue with them and get in their
face," gets a pass for the strong-arm tactics of his allies on the angry left.
Meanwhile, McCain is blasted for fomenting partisan wrath, even though he has
corrected supporters at his rallies when they made comments that he considered
over the top.

Mainstream media outlets have given prominent coverage to comments such as
those of Democratic Rep. John Lewis of Georgia, who accused McCain of "sowing
the seeds of hatred and division" and compared him to segregationist Alabama
governor George Wallace. CNN pundit James Carville has clucked that he fears
the McCain crowds "could literally cause physical harm." New York Times op-ed
columnist Frank Rich has declared that McCain and Palin are playing "the race
card." His evidence: People at McCain-Palin rallies — although not the
candidates themselves — sometimes use Obama's middle name or shout out angry
retorts to speeches.

Ironically, the same critics seeking to concoct a scandal from a few stray
hecklers at McCain-Palin rallies howl in protest whenever McCain supporters
raise questions about Obama's much more intimate associations with dubious
characters. Whether the topic is Obama's 20-year friendship with racist,
anti-American pastor Rev. Jeremiah Wright, his political start in the living
room of unrepentant domestic terrorist William Ayers, his business dealings
with convicted felon Tony Rezko or his ties to ACORN, the advocacy group that
has been implicated in a nationwide voter-fraud scandal, the answer from
Obama's journalistic allies is always the same: That's a distraction.

When it comes to media elites in the grip of Obama-mania, it seems, every
criticism of their anointed candidate is a distraction. That bias is not lost
on voters. Much of the anger journalists bemoan among McCain supporters is
directed at them. As one man told the Washington Post, "You are treating
[Obama] like he's Britney Spears and covering him like he's Paris Hilton,
instead of the next president of the United States, potentially." Instead of
dismissing such criticism as partisan hysteria, media elites would do well to
listen and learn. If they truly want voters to take a more detached, clear-eyed
view of the candidates, they can begin by modeling that objectivity in
themselves and their own work.

Colleen Carroll Campbell is an author, television and radio host and St.
Louis-based fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. Her website is
www.colleen-campbell.com.
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  #7  
Old 10-16-2008, 10:24 AM
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Re: "Kill Him", "Treason", "Off With His Head!"

Whatever, i'm so tired of the whole mess.
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Old 10-16-2008, 01:14 PM
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Re: "Kill Him", "Treason", "Off With His Head!"

IS THE "KILL HIM" STORY EVEN TRUE? APPARENTLY NOT
--------------

Posted: October 15
Updated: Today at 10:14 AM
Secret Service says "Kill him" allegation unfounded

By Andrew M. Seder aseder@timesleader.com
Staff Writer

SCRANTON – The agent in charge of the Secret Service field office in Scranton said allegations that someone yelled “kill him” when presidential hopeful Barack Obama’s name was mentioned during Tuesday’s Sarah Palin rally are unfounded.

The Scranton Times-Tribune first reported the alleged incident on its Web site Tuesday and then again in its print edition Wednesday. The first story, written by reporter David Singleton, appeared with allegations that while congressional candidate Chris Hackett was addressing the crowd and mentioned Obama’s name a man in the audience shouted “kill him."

News organizations including ABC, The Associated Press, The Washington Monthly and MSNBC’s Countdown with Keith Olbermann reported the claim, with most attributing the allegations to the Times-Tribune story.

Agent Bill Slavoski said he was in the audience, along with an undisclosed number of additional secret service agents and other law enforcement officers and not one heard the comment.

...“We have yet to find someone to back up the story,” Slavoski said. “We had people all over and we have yet to find anyone who said they heard it.”

http://www.timesleader.com/news/brea...nfounded_.html

.
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Old 10-16-2008, 03:46 PM
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Re: "Kill Him", "Treason", "Off With His Head!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRFrance View Post
IS THE "KILL HIM" STORY EVEN TRUE? APPARENTLY NOT
--------------

Posted: October 15
Updated: Today at 10:14 AM
Secret Service says "Kill him" allegation unfounded

By Andrew M. Seder aseder@timesleader.com
Staff Writer

SCRANTON – The agent in charge of the Secret Service field office in Scranton said allegations that someone yelled “kill him” when presidential hopeful Barack Obama’s name was mentioned during Tuesday’s Sarah Palin rally are unfounded.

The Scranton Times-Tribune first reported the alleged incident on its Web site Tuesday and then again in its print edition Wednesday. The first story, written by reporter David Singleton, appeared with allegations that while congressional candidate Chris Hackett was addressing the crowd and mentioned Obama’s name a man in the audience shouted “kill him."

News organizations including ABC, The Associated Press, The Washington Monthly and MSNBC’s Countdown with Keith Olbermann reported the claim, with most attributing the allegations to the Times-Tribune story.

Agent Bill Slavoski said he was in the audience, along with an undisclosed number of additional secret service agents and other law enforcement officers and not one heard the comment.

...“We have yet to find someone to back up the story,” Slavoski said. “We had people all over and we have yet to find anyone who said they heard it.”

http://www.timesleader.com/news/brea...nfounded_.html

.


Unless I imagined it, the story is true! I saw the feed on CNN and they had the captions.

This is setting me up for attack by mentioning CNN, but the phrases I quoted, I heard.
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  #10  
Old 10-16-2008, 06:26 PM
OP_Carl OP_Carl is offline
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Re: "Kill Him", "Treason", "Off With His Head!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1399 View Post
Unless I imagined it, the story is true! I saw the feed on CNN and they had the captions.

This is setting me up for attack by mentioning CNN, but the phrases I quoted, I heard.
Could you please post a link 1399?

I'd like to hear it myself.

The thing is, Obama's own secret service detail didn't hear it!!!!

The SS has conducted an investigation:

Quote:
Agent Bill Slavoski said he was in the audience, along with an undisclosed number of additional secret service agents and other law enforcement officers and not one heard the comment.

"I was baffled," he said after reading the report in Wednesday's Times-Tribune.

He said the agency conducted an investigation Wednesday, after seeing the story, and could not find one person to corroborate the allegation other than Singleton.

Slavoski said more than 20 non-security agents were interviewed Wednesday, from news media to ordinary citizens in attendance at the rally for the Republican vice presidential candidate held at the Riverfront Sports Complex. He said Singleton was the only one to say he heard someone yell "kill him."

"We have yet to find someone to back up the story," Slavoski said. "We had people all over and we have yet to find anyone who said they heard it."

Hackett said he did not hear the remark.
From the American Thinker piece:
Quote:
The only person who heard the remark was the reporter? Mr. Singleton was interviewed by the Secret Service and "stands by his story." When contacted, Singleton referred people to his editor who claims "The facts reported are true and that’s really all there is.”

Except that's not all there is. This is a story that went viral, appearing on national cable nets and broadcast news channels as well as national magazines and hundreds if not thousands of blogs.

And now we find that the reporter - despite his protestations to the contrary - just made it up out of whole cloth in order to play into his overall theme that GOP crowds were "angry" and out of control?

Let's see how many media outlets who rushed this story on to the air or into print report on the Secret Service investigation. If they had a single ounce of integrity, they would apologize to the McCain-Palin campaign, the GOP, its supporters, and every single American who heard the story.
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Despite today's rising cost of living, it remains popular.

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." - Sir Winston Churchill

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Sir Winston Churchill

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." - Benjamin Franklin
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