Sabbath Keeping Denominations

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

i

It not the same. It is a different covenant. Sure it’s with (some) of the same people. And there may be some similarities. Buuuuut one was ready to expire (it was fulfilled) a thousand years ago (x2). So the idea that you (and others) are trying to restore it is really ludicrous (said in my most kind way imaginable). The old covenant is no longer in force with the Jews. Trying to keep it as a Gentile is utter confusion. As well as impossible.

I don't know about anybody else, but *I* have never argued for trying to keep the old covenant. In fact I have repeatedly asserted in these types of discussions that the old covenant is gone and cannot be kept no matter how hard someone wanted to.

Once again, we see a strawman, a common strawman which is often put forward by sabbath-breakers, arguing that if one wishes to remember the sabbath day to keep it holy they must be promoting the continued observance of the old covenant. Which, as it is a strawman fallacy, may be discarded.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Keeping the sabbath as a day of rest BEGAN with the Mosaic law. It did not transcend the law. The sabbath is not mentioned (as the sabbath) until the book of Exodus. God sanctified the seventh day in Genesis after creation. There is no mention of Him requiring man to sanctify the sabbath day until the book of Exodus.

Understanding that the observance of the sabbath was a law, means that there was also a punishment for breaking the law.

What was the punishment?

The argument is "because a commandment is not mentioned as a commandment with a punishment stated, prior to the book of Exodus, it is therefore not binding upon anyone today."

But,
The prohibition against idolatry likewise does not appear until the Exodus, nor does the prohibition against taking the Lord's name in vain, nor the command to not bear false witness, nor the command to honour one's mother and father, nor the prohibition against coveting your beighbour's stuff.

Yet,
The proponents of this type of fallacious argumentation do not apply their own reasoning to those other commands, they maintain they are both universally valid today and were in fact valid prior to the Exodus.

And,
It should be noted that the prohibition against cross-dressing carries no stated punishment, yet the proponents of this reasoning do not apply it to the prohibition against cross-dressing.

So,
This fallacious reasoning may be discarded as well.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Blessings.

Yet, it is interesting that in the first century Hebrew was a liturgical language.
Greek was read and spoken in the synagogue. Also Greek was the lingua franca in Judea. Aramaic replacing Hebrew after the Babylonian captivity. The whole Yahweh, Yehowah, Yahooweh, Hooray, sacred name situation. Is that there are no vowels within the Hebrew. Therefore early scholars mixed up the name of Canaanite and Edomite deities with the pronunciation of the God of the Hebrews. Sometimes, not always, Sabbatarianism gets mixed up with Hebrew Roots, Sacred Namers, and Rabbinical Judaism. Since Christians have a tendency to believe modern day Rabbinical Jews to be authorities on the Old Testament. The Christian gets caught in the vortex of Hebrewism. In Sunday school young people are taught with a felt board with bedouin images and three wisemen riding camels. These images are imbedded deep within our psyche. Therefore we start seeing Jesus as Rabbi Tovia Singer. All ready to lead its aficionados down a path of an ecclesiastical pit of Judaism. In the history of basic Christendom, there never really was a big love affair with Jewishness.
Now, that I said all that, let me say that Sister Amanah isn’t a Hebrew Onlyist, or Sacred Namer. She is also not Judaizer.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

... the argument that we must keep the Sabbath because is in the foundational ten commandments doesn't hold for me.

THAT argument would include the assumption that the Ten Commandments are universal moral law. A person who does not believe the Decalogue is in fact universal moral law would need to first get to that point.

The two doesn't contain the Sabbath, but the two is a dependency for the ten, but the ten must have another dependency that brought the Sabbath. What was it? the creation narrative application? the sign of the covenant? something else?

God said to remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy BECAUSE He created everything in 6 days and rested the seventh day and blessed it and separated it from the other days. (This, by the way, is one of the reasons WHY it is a sign of covenant relationship, because Sabbath-keeping is part of identifying who one's God is.)

Then, the question is, does it continue in the NT? why not?

But why does that question even get raised, if not for the fact that people a priori assume that anything written in the OT might not be continued in the NT? Do you understand what I am getting at here? I mean where does the initial question get its start? Is it not because people have been taught that "old testament is for Jews, new testament is for Christian non-Jews?"

Seems to me, the default assumption would be "Since this is the Word of God, everything applies and everything is binding unless the Word of God specifically says otherwise."

I mean, nobody automatically raises the question of continuity about the other 9 commandments, do they? Therefore they have been taught to regard the 4th commandment as not really belonging in the Decalogue, that the 4th commandment is just some sort of peculiar Jewish ritual thing on the same level as the rules governing leprosy or something, but with less practical value.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

THAT argument would include the assumption that the Ten Commandments are universal moral law. A person who does not believe the Decalogue is in fact universal moral law would need to first get to that point.



God said to remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy BECAUSE He created everything in 6 days and rested the seventh day and blessed it and separated it from the other days. (This, by the way, is one of the reasons WHY it is a sign of covenant relationship, because Sabbath-keeping is part of identifying who one's God is.)



But why does that question even get raised, if not for the fact that people a priori assume that anything written in the OT might not be continued in the NT?

Really?! Why does that question get raised? Have you not read my posts?

Because (in Hebrews) it says that the old covenant is decaying, it’s about to disappear! That’s not an assumption. It is a literal fact. Unless, of course, you don’t believe the Bible. I’m not basing it on my opinion. It’s the word of God.
[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Do you understand what I am getting at here? I mean where does the initial question get its start? Is it not because people have been taught that "old testament is for Jews, new testament is for Christian non-Jews?"

When the Bible speaks to the Israelites, specifically, it’s a good idea to believe the word is for the Israelites. When the law is specifically said to apply to the Israelites that are alive today (ie not our fathers) do you try to apply the law retroactively?

Deut.5

[1] And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
[2] The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
[3] The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Seems to me, the default assumption would be "Since this is the Word of God, everything applies and everything is binding unless the Word of God specifically says otherwise."

I mean, nobody automatically raises the question of continuity about the other 9 commandments, do they?

Yes. I do! I have said so many times. The old covenant is not made with Gentiles. Read my posts.
[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Therefore they have been taught to regard the 4th commandment as not really belonging in the Decalogue, that the 4th commandment is just some sort of peculiar Jewish ritual thing on the same level as the rules governing leprosy or something, but with less practical value.

[/QUOTE]
The commandment regarding the sabbath certainly belongs in the Decalogue. The Decalogue is part of the old covenant. It doesn’t apply to gentiles or Christians. Because the Bible is clear on that. Just believe what the Bible says.

The punishment for breaking the law of the sabbath was to stone the perpetrators. How many sabbath breakers have you stoned Esaias?
What’s the problem here?
Are you quitting halfway?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Really?! Why does that question get raised? Have you not read my posts?

Because (in Hebrews) it says that the old covenant is decaying, it’s about to disappear! That’s not an assumption. It is a literal fact. Unless, of course, you don’t believe the Bible. I’m not basing it on my opinion. It’s the word of God.

Therefore, according to your reasoning, you do not abstain from idols, adultery, theft, etc. Because after all, the old covenant is gone.

When the Bible speaks to the Israelites, specifically, it’s a good idea to believe the word is for the Israelites. When the law is specifically said to apply to the Israelites that are alive today (ie not our fathers) do you try to apply the law retroactively?

Therefore, not only the entire old testament scriptures, but the words of Jesus do not apply to you, since they were all given to Israelites. In fact, the Gospel and the redemption in Jesus does not apply to you, because:

Matthew 15:24 KJV
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Yes. I do! I have said so many times. The old covenant is not made with Gentiles. Read my posts.

Neither was the new covenant. Looks like you have shut yourself out of the kingdom. Sad. Many such cases.

The commandment regarding the sabbath certainly belongs in the Decalogue. The Decalogue is part of the old covenant. It doesn’t apply to gentiles or Christians. Because the Bible is clear on that. Just believe what the Bible says.

Therefore only Israelites under the old covenant are to refrain from idolatry, theft, murder, etc. Oh, and only Israelites under the old covenant are supposed to love God and their neighbour. Because, after all, that was part of the old covenant too.

The punishment for breaking the law of the sabbath was to stone the perpetrators. How many sabbath breakers have you stoned Esaias?
What’s the problem here?
Are you quitting halfway?

Genesis 9:5-7 KJV
And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. [6] Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. [7] And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

How many murderers have you executed Tithesmeister? What's the problem here? Quitting halfway?

99 and a half won't do, you know...

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Therefore, according to your reasoning, you do not abstain from idols, adultery, theft, etc. Because after all, the old covenant is gone.




Therefore, not only the entire old testament scriptures, but the words of Jesus do not apply to you, since they were all given to Israelites. In fact, the Gospel and the redemption in Jesus does not apply to you, because:

Matthew 15:24 KJV
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.






Neither was the new covenant. Looks like you have shut yourself out of the kingdom. Sad. Many such cases.




Therefore only Israelites under the old covenant are to refrain from idolatry, theft, murder, etc. Oh, and only Israelites under the old covenant are supposed to love God and their neighbour. Because, after all, that was part of the old covenant too.



Genesis 9:5-7 KJV
And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. [6] Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. [7] And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

How many murderers have you executed Tithesmeister? What's the problem here? Quitting halfway?

99 and a half won't do, you know...

I knew you were going to go there. You pretend that since I say that the old covenant is fulfilled and is decayed and ready to go away (nearly two thousand years ago) that there is not a new covenant. Even though I quoted scripture saying there was a new covenant.

There is a new covenant Esaias. The new covenant has been around for a couple thousand years.

And you pretend that you never heard the news. It was prophesied by several Old Testament prophets. It came to fruition in the book of Acts. You probably missed it . . .

Acts10

[44] While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
[45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[46] For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
[47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
[48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Salvation is available to Gentiles. I’m sure the news hasn’t reached you yet. But thank God for it!

It isn’t by the works of the law though. You should really study it. It’s really a big deal.

Gal.2

[16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

You should study the Pauline letters. He has a lot to say on the subject.

Ps. FYI ALL OF PAULS WRITINGS ARE FOUND IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. THEY BEGIN AFTER ACTS. IF YOU NEED FURTHER HELP ASK YOUR GRANDKIDS THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO HELP.

[Tithesmeister]

Galatians 3
[10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Are you and Sister Amanah of the works of the law. It sure sounds like it. If so, Paul says you are cursed. I didn’t say it. Paul said it. He was a student of Gamaliel, well versed in the law.

Do you know more than Paul?

[Amanah]

Here are some New Testament scriptures that affirm the Decalogue (Ten Commandments) being included in the New Covenant:

1. Matthew 5:17-19 - Jesus teaches that He came to fulfill the law, not abolish it, and that not a single jot or tittle will pass away until all is fulfilled.
2. Romans 3:31 - Paul writes that faith in Jesus Christ establishes the law, rather than making it void.
3. Romans 7:7-12 - Paul reflects on the enduring nature of the law, specifically citing the commandment "You shall not covet" (Exodus 20:17).
4. Romans 13:8-10 - Paul teaches that loving one's neighbor fulfills the law, citing commandments 5-10 of the Decalogue.
5. 1 Corinthians 7:19 - Paul writes that "circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God."
6. Ephesians 6:1-3 - Paul exhorts children to obey their parents, citing the fifth commandment (Exodus 20:12).
7. James 2:8-12 - James teaches that loving one's neighbor fulfills the royal law, citing Leviticus 19:18, which is echoed in the Decalogue.

These scriptures demonstrate that the Decalogue remains relevant and binding under the New Covenant, as a reflection of God's eternal character and will.

[Amanah]

Here are some scriptures that explain the purpose of the Holy Ghost is to write the commandments on your heart:

1. Hebrews 8:10 (KJV) - For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.
2. Hebrews 10:16 (KJV) - This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.
3. Jeremiah 31:33 (KJV) - But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
4. 2 Corinthians 3:3 (KJV) - Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

These scriptures describe the work of the Holy Ghost in writing God's laws and commandments on our hearts, which is a key aspect of the New Covenant. This inner transformation enables us to obey God's commands out of love and gratitude, rather than mere external obligation.