There are works that are a result of faith,like repentance,and then there are works that are works of the ceremonial law.
Abraham was considered righteous because he trusted God but yet His faith drove Him to obedience.Faith without works is dead, but yet man is incapable to save himself by his own goodness.
Amen ... it goes to say if repentance and baptism are results of faith ... and it goes to say that they are not the causes of our salvation ...
Our salvation is caused by the Work of the Lamb and when we place our faith in him these works of faith will result .... however ... this will not happen w/ a life dead in sin ... it must be quickened to life ... regenerated prior to showing the fruit of faith.
One passage talks about repentance from dead works,which I believe is in Hebrews.
I thought dead works were sinful works,but I understand dead works to mean unprofitable works,such as works of the law like animal sacrifices and keeping of feast days because they don't profit because there is no salvation or imputation of righteousness in keeping those works.
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People who are always looking for fault,can find it easily all they have to do,is look into their mirror.
There they can find plenty of fault.
I'm on dial-up but I am open-minded but I would like to hear this video.
I'm talking about the greek language to some Greek orthodox folks here. http://worldwidegreeks.com
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People who are always looking for fault,can find it easily all they have to do,is look into their mirror.
There they can find plenty of fault.
I'm on dial-up but I am open-minded but I would like to hear this video.
I'm talking about the greek language to some Greek orthodox folks here. http://worldwidegreeks.com
Let's see if we can convert it to a video file and send it to you for download or maybe snail mail
Abraham's faith was reckoned for righteousness when he was yet uncircumcised:
But the symbol of his faith was made manifest through circumcision. The question is, what would have been the covenantal status of Abraham had he refused God's symbol of circumcision? It was Abraham's initial faith that reckoned or accounted him righteous, but it appears circumcision was a symbolic token of the covenant between Abraham and God.
Was Abraham's reckoned righteousness different from the covenant?
Would he have remained in covenant even if he refused the symbol?
I believe the power of water baptism lies in its confirmation of the covenantal status of the believer. I look forward to your reply.
God bless.
I highly agree in your assessment that baptism is a symbolic token of a covenant made w/ God ... yet, teacher, I still await answers to my questions ...
a. Does baptism cause our New Birth? Or is it an effect of our New Birth?
b. Does a properly administered baptism apply the blood of Jesus effectuating the washing away of our sins?
As for Abraham being considered righteous before God ... was his righteousness because of works (faith produced or performance produced)? Paul tells us that this is not the case in Romans.
I believe all saints in the OT were saved by grace through faith in the looking forward to the eventual sacrifice of a Perfect Lamb that would forgive his sins once and for all.
Abraham's righteous was imputed upon him by virtue the same blood shed by Christ that washes away my sins and yours.
As for his circumcision ... for a period of 12 years he does not perform this ritual while being in covenant. It's not until Genesis 17 that he is circumcised.
Which begs to be asked was he saved during this period ... Had he died would he have entered the kingdom of God ... would he have seen God w/ a foreskin? And maybe more importantly would this salvation be based on the premise that he would have eventually have been circumcised .... or his faith in the testator?
We'd have to agree that he was saved during this time of what some liken to covering.
Had he refused it ... would he have had genuine faith or trust in the God of the covenant? I believe someone who refuses such a token falls under unbelief ... and we know he who does not believe is condemned.
Was the circumcision a cause or powerful product of his being righteous before God? ... and yes being declared righteous before God tells me we have access before the throne of God.
You surely agree that circumcision was not the covenant but rather a token of it ... which may or may not answer your second question.
A believer tells us (1):
Almost every covenant had a sign or token along with it. For Noah, it was the rainbow; for Abraham, it was circumcision; for Moses, it was the Sabbath; and for the new covenant of grace, it is baptism by water. None of these were the covenant itself but a token of one's entry into a covenant with God. All were visible means for the participants in it. Baptism is to identify with a person, a group of people, or the message. As Christians this has been practiced as an ordinance. It is a symbol and witness of the change of ownership that has taken place for us. We identify with the Lord Jesus, His message, and the body of believers. It is a symbol of my old life being dead (I was crucified and buried with Christ and raised up to newness of life). This new life takes place at the cross by His death and resurrection, not when I'm immersed in water. Those who heard John's and Jesus' message and believed, were obedient to be baptized in water as the visible sign of their repentance. It is a symbol, not the substance.
The question now is whether our water baptism itself is what removes the body of flesh as OT circumcison?
I know some believe Colossians 2:12 and 2 or 3 other pet verses is proof positive that this is what happens at water baptism.
The writer explains (2):
"In Col. 2:11-12, we read, "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him, through faith in the working of God who raised Him from the dead"
In the Old Testament, circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. It was a minor surgical operation that involved the cutting away of the flesh. Circumcision symbolized death to the flesh by the "cutting away of sins", so in New Testament symbolism, it refers to spiritual circumcision. "Made without hands" meant that no human effort was involved, rather, it is God's work The circumcision refers to His death, meaning when one believes their sin is cut off. It also relates to Christ's death which He Himself called a "baptism". This term did not mean a water baptism, but one of death and burial (Romans 2:29): "Circumcision is that of the heart in the Spirit, not in the letter. . .", which the ceremony of baptism depicts. The Bible clearly teaches that circumcision is a work of the Spirit which circumcises since it is God’s work.
This spiritual circumcision is the invisible work that baptism symbolizes.
Again, baptism points back to the work of Christ since it is the circumcision of Christ (not baptism) that achieves this for a believer. (In the same way, Rom. 6 refers to describing the occurrence of the Gospel.)
In the New Testament, we find that baptism is the sign or seal of the New Covenant, and functions like a substitute for circumcision of the Old Covenant. For the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen. 17:21) it was mandatory.
Under the Mosaic Covenant (Ex. 12:48), it was to show submission to the Law of Moses. Christ commissioned His disciples to go, teach, make disciples, and baptize. Just as circumcision was required of proselytes converting to Judaism, in a like manner, baptism was required as a visible mark of entrance into the New Covenant.
These two rites have similar meanings. Circumcision was characterized by a cutting away of sin and a change of heart. Baptism is a picture of the washing away of sin.
"Baptism did away with the need for circumcision because it signified the union of the believer with Christ, thereby cutting off the old nature. A lesser circumcision has been replaced by a greater circumcision. The spiritual circumcision promised under the Old Testament Covenant has become a reality under the New Covenant through baptism". (George BeasIey-Murray, Baptism in the New Testament).
Again, baptism is only a visible symbol of what occurred by the previous reality, which is the real substance. It points back to Christ."
"First, the verse is frequently quoted out of context. The entire context runs from verse 10 through verse 17:
. . . You are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
This context shows that baptism is presented as the New Testament counterpart of circumcision in the Old Testament. They are presented in a careful parallel to each other. The one who is "in Christ" is circumcised with a circumcision made "without hands." The parallel usage of circumcision and baptism demands that we understand the "baptism" to be made "without hands" also. Therefore, this cannot be a reference to literal water baptism, but rather a usage of the figure of "baptism" as a picture of dying and rising with Christ, as in Romans 6:3-4.
Second, since baptism is shown to be the New Testament counterpart to circumcision in the Old Testament, we know that those relations of circumcision to salvation in the Old Testament apply to the relation of baptism to salvation in the New Testament. Circumcision was not necessary for salvation in the Old Testament, for Abraham was saved before he was circumcised (Genesis 15:6). Furthermore, Romans 2:28-29 shows clearly that it is not physical circumcision (that "made with hands") but spiritual circumcision which makes one truly a Jew and one of Abraham's children.
Since baptism is the New Testament counterpart to circumcision in the Old Testament, we may therefore understand Romans 2:28-29 to have the same meaning in relation to baptism that it has in relation to circumcision:
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not from men but from God.
This can also be understood in relation to baptism. To paraphrase the above passage, baptism is therefore not that which is outward in the flesh, but is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter. This is precisely what was shown in my discussion of Romans 6:3-4, I Corinthians 12:13, and Galatians 3:27. The use of "baptism" by Paul as a symbol for identification thus makes perfect sense, for circumcision in the Old Testament was a means of identification with the nation of Israel. But whereas physical circumcision identified one with the physical, outward Church, spiritual baptism is that which identifies one with the spiritual Body of Christ.
The use of "baptism" in Colossians 2:12 is figurative, as was the use of it by Paul in Romans 6:3-4, I Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:27, etc., and refers to a spiritual baptism "made without hands," an identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. It is accomplished by a direct spiritual act of the Holy Spirit, not by a physical act done by man."
Lastly even Peter ... the preacher of Pentecost tells us that baptism does not remove the body of the filth of flesh ...
2 Peter he says " ....Not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God"
How does one have a good conscience toward God still dead in a body of sin as some say is present until baptism unless it has been washed by the blood of Jesus?
Peter clarifies for us when our sins are blotted or washed away in Acts 3:19
19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
Dan, maybe water baptism is a physical seal or confirmation on our part of His covenant with us.
This is our part. Baptism with the Spirit is HIS part.
Gen 17:9 And God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. Gen 17:11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. Gen 17:12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, Gen 17:13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. Gen 17:14Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
Col 2:10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority. Col 2:11In him you also were circumcised — not, however, with a circumcision performed by human hands, but by the removal of the fleshly body, that is, through the circumcision done by Christ. Col 2:12Having been buried with him in baptism, you also have been raised with him through your faith in the power of God who raised him from the dead.
I've also said this before and posted several scriptures, but baptism goes hand in hand with being made a disciple of Christ. The disciples of John were known simply by Paul asking "Unto what were you baptized" and they replied John's. Then in order to become a disciple of Jesus they were rebaptized and they obeyed.
Baptism and discipleship go hand in hand Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Mat 28:20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ************ed.
(Here believing and baptism go hand in hand)
Joh 4:1 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John Joh 4:2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Almost every covenant had a sign or token along with it. For Noah, it was the rainbow; for Abraham, it was circumcision; for Moses, it was the Sabbath; and for the new covenant of grace, it is baptism by water. None of these were the covenant itself but a token of one's entry into a covenant with God. All were visible means for the participants in it. Baptism is to identify with a person, a group of people, or the message. As Christians this has been practiced as an ordinance. It is a symbol and witness of the change of ownership that has taken place for us.We identify with the Lord Jesus, His message, and the body of believers.It is a symbol of my old life being dead (I was crucified and buried with Christ and raised up to newness of life). This new life takes place at the cross by His death and resurrection, not when I'm immersed in water. Those who heard John's and Jesus' message and believed, were obedient to be baptized in water as the visible sign of their repentance. It is a symbol, not the substance.
Water baptism involves both, symbol and substance. The symbol is our identification with Christ by being buried with Him in a watery grave. The substance is having our body of sins removed, the circumcison of the Spirit made without hands, or the remission of our sins.
We identify with Christ's death when we repent, we die to our old life of sin and turn from it to live a new life. We identify with Christ's resurrection when we are filled with His Spirit. This is our symbollic resurrection. And this is how we identify with the gospel of Christ.
I agree with the sentences I highlighted in color. You see there is substance involved in all aspects of our identification with Christ. It's not just symbollic but something actually happens at repentance. We aren't just sybollically crucifying our old man with Christ but we are really and truly having a change of mind. When we identify with Christ's resurrection to walk in newness of life something actually happens....we are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
And in all these things..repentance, water baptism, and Spirit baptism it is God working to bring us to repentance, to remit sin, and to fill us with His Spirit. All this is done THROUGH faith. Without faith none of this would be possible.
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His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. 
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