Logos Doctrine And The UPC - Page 9

Michael The Disciple · #1 10-13-2019, 05:41 PM

Part 2

The Apostles understood the image of the invisible God more fully than most Oneness Pentecostals today. They have been taught the Son only refers to Jesus in flesh. While this is somewhat true neither they nor Jesus made this concept into a doctrine.

Isaiah 44:24

24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

YHWH said he made all things ALONE AND BY HIMSELF.

The image of the invisible God was not someone else.

IT WAS GODS VISIBLE SELF.

There was no God beside him. As omnipresent Spirit he had no specific location. As the image he sat on a throne and commanded and sent angels.

This was Gods SELF. HIS PERSON.

Eph. 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Paul taught the Ephesians God created all things BY JESUS CHRIST.

If YHWH created all things by Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ was the IMAGE OF GOD for he created all things ALONE AND BY HIMSELF.

The image was with God and the image was God.

Paul writes of this form to the Philippians.

Phil 2:5-8

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Being in the form of God Christ knew he was everything God was. He was not robbing God by knowing this. He WAS.... GOD.

But he humbled himself and laid aside the form of God and took for him the LIKENESS of men.

The word likeness means "form".

The Logos went from the form of God to the form of men.

As a man Jesus fully obeyed God (the omnipresent Spirit) and God highly exalted him making the man Jesus Christ all that the he was before as the image.

Col. 2:9

For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

As a man now he is the image of the invisible God.

mfblume · #2 10-13-2019, 05:41 PM

This issue is of no practical value.

Carry on.

Esaias · #3 10-13-2019, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

This issue is of no practical value.

Carry on.

This is a case study in how trinitarianism came about.

Michael The Disciple · #4 10-13-2019, 05:46 PM

Dom

Quote:

You are reading into the verse that John is saying that the word is distinct from God

John 1:2

The same was in the beginning WITH GOD.

See?

Esaias · #5 10-13-2019, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Dom

John 1:2

The same was in the beginning WITH GOD.

See?

Eternal life which was WITH the Father. Is Eternal Life a separate thing from God?

Michael The Disciple · #6 10-13-2019, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Eternal life which was WITH the Father. Is Eternal Life a separate thing from God?

True his eternal life possessed the Logos in the beginning.

Proverbs 8:22-25

Quote:

22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

The visible was with the invisible. Two modes of being simultaneously.

Michael The Disciple · #7 10-13-2019, 09:28 PM

Esais said this on the Most Complex Thread Post 42.

Quote:

Jeremiah wasn't said to have prophesied from the beginning. Paul said God made all things by the Son, which implies actual activity on the Son's part. Which only makes sense when we take into account the fact that the Son is the Word made flesh, and it was the Word by which all things were made. And as Genesis reveals, God made all things by His Word (And God said, etc).

The Word is God revealing Himself, God's self-revelation to the creation. So the Word is more than just "an idea in the Divine Mind", for a logos is not merely the mental concept behind a word, but the word itself, in actuality. Does the idea of the Logos include the Divine Plan? Sure. But it goes much deeper than that.

Very excellent.

Esaias · #8 10-14-2019, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Esais said this on the Most Complex Thread Post 42.

Very excellent.

Yet you can't see how what you quoted and said was "very excellent" CONTRADICTS YOUR DOCTRINE? I plainly said the Son is the Word MADE FLESH, but you teach the Word is the Son WITHOUT YET BEING MADE FLESH. You have the Son is the Word APART FROM BEING MADE FLESH as demonstrated in your saying the Word was BEGOTTEN before the rest of creation and claiming that is why He is the Son!

If ALL THINGS WITHOUT EXCEPTION THAT WERE MADE, WERE MADE BY THE WORD, THEN EITHER THE WORD MADE ITSELF OR THE WORD IS NOT MADE.

Esaias · #9 10-14-2019, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

True his eternal life possessed the Logos in the beginning.

Proverbs 8:22-25

The visible was with the invisible. Two modes of being simultaneously.

This is NOT how you do doctrine.

You have equivocated Jehovah and Eternal Life. You said "with" means they are two different things. I asked if the eternal life with God is different thing than God. You respond with the eternal life possessing the Logos. Can you not see how you switched things there?

Then you quote a text which says Jehovah possessed wisdom. You obviously are identifying wisdom as the logos. Ok, but you MISIDENTIFIED JEHOVAH AS HIS ETERNAL LIFE contrary to your original point! It says Jehovah possessed wisdom. So you have conceded that eternal life IS JEHOVAH GOD, which blows your claims about "with" right out of the water!

Evang.Benincasa · #10 10-14-2019, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

This is NOT how you do doctrine.

You have equivocated Jehovah and Eternal Life. You said "with" means they are two different things. I asked if the eternal life with God is different thing than God. You respond with the eternal life possessing the Logos. Can you not see how you switched things there?

Then you quote a text which says Jehovah possessed wisdom. You obviously are identifying wisdom as the logos. Ok, but you MISIDENTIFIED JEHOVAH AS HIS ETERNAL LIFE contrary to your original point! It says Jehovah possessed wisdom. So you have conceded that eternal life IS JEHOVAH GOD, which blows your claims about "with" right out of the water!

Mike, do yourself a favor, call up the Kingdom Hall, and get some Witnesses over to your place. I’m not saying you should join. But just go through your logos teaching with them. Don’t try to convert them from jump street. Just go through your logos teaching. You will be surprised how similar you are with them. Especially on you wisdom-logos doctrine.