For those that left the UPC...

[glorians]

Originally Posted by jfrog

A work sponsored dress code ends at work. A church sponsored dress code ends at church.

Then you should have brought that up with your local pastor..

I work as a military, dress up in a military clothing, but when church and when opportunity permits, I obey what my church standard is.. It doesnt have to be biblical in that manner... i dont see anything bad against clothing standards but moreso, i become more disciplined and if i can follow the rules of the armed forces to wear what i must wear whether it's 100 lbs of extra load, i can't complain. i gave my loyalty to the state, to the service, to the uniform... why can't you render that honor and loyalty to your church? moreso, if moslem women can follow that strict eye only (to be seen) mode of standard, if they can do that for Allah, I can do that for Jesus... (this is to point out that adhere to the standard of your church or get out of it! but before you get out of that church bcoz of its standards, gauge your self what state are you in your spirituality or youre just a sick brethren who's sick and tired to follow rules..... (im not saying in any abrupt manner but trying to point out something in this regard)



The other aspect of this is you dont believe in the standard to be biblical... in that sense, you dont have to leave your church if u think they are wrong, if u really love them, lead them... study with them, discuss with them, argue with them, debate with them.... but if u think oneness err in this area and u just left them for this reason, where is the love yo?! i dont know?! and trust me... you'll see in other churches that people argue in other different standards of their churches whether it be in regard with money, leadership, choir uniform, carpet color, color of paint of the church, etc.. etc.. hope u get my point. ;-)

[longhairgirl]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I have a question for you too. When your husband left your church, if he had really loved the God at that time, could he have done anything that would have convinced you that he still loved God short of coming back to your church with you?

Actually, he never discussed his reasons for leaving with me. It was quite sweet of him actually. He said he loved my relationship with God, and he didn't want to hurt my faith. Although he did bring some things into our house I didn't believe in (like TV...although I did put up a fuss at first, I eventually let it go since he is my husband and I greatly respect him), he never ever tried to change me. He didn't say anything against my dress, lack of makeup, or long hair. He let me raise our children in those standards as well without comment. He just didn't attend church. I know he still loved God though.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by longhairgirl

Well, I have to say that I am 100% UPC. I just joined today, and will probably leave since I was under the impression that this was a UPC forum, and it is not (oops). I was really just looking for some fellowship like I have with my girlfriends after church, so this is not for me.

But I do feel compelled to respond to your post. From the other side. As I have said, I am 100% UPC...I was not raised in church, I've been to every church under the sun and studied everything from Buddist to Wicca. When the Lord found me, I knew this was the real thing

So, I joined the church at age 21, and got married at age 24. A year later, my husband left the church. I was devasted. I cried and cried to the Lord, I did things the "right" way...and my husband leaves the church! It was very hard on me and my child (I have 3 children now). My greatest concern was for my children...you see, I love this church, its standards, its doctrine. I want my children to love it too. Thank the Lord my husband has now been back in church for 2 years!

I say all this to say that I really admire your concern for your husband. I would hate for your objection to standards to drive a wedge into your family. It's sooooo hard for someone who tries to keep the churches standards to live with someone not in church. Keep on praying about this, and talk to your husband about his concerns. Coming from his point of view, its very scary when your other half leaves the church. I still have things in my house (TV....I can't stand it!) that haven't left from when my husband was out of church. Some things are not easily undone.

I hope I have not offended you in any way...I simply speak from the heart as one who has been on the other side. Your family will be in my prayers.

There are a lot of different dynamics at work in different families. I wasn't raised in the UPC either but joined up as a teenager. My wife was born and raised into it by a set of parents with several generations of Oneness background - and they were very zealous for all of the new "holiness" stuff that was being introduced at the time.

My wife's mother stopped trimming her hair and her oldest girls' hair in the mid 1960's. My wife was young enough that she had never had her hair cut or trimmed. All of this was a new thing for them even though my mother-in-law's uncle was a disciple and successor to GT Haywood himself. It's a simple fact, the teaching on uncut hair was never prevalent until the 1950's.

The UPC Ladies' Auxiliary Presidents from the 1970's and 1980's were both cousins to my MIL. Despite all of the "old fashioned holiness" appeal found in their publications and pics, they were all raised in godly Oneness Pentecostal homes without even a hint of the "uncut hair" teaching.

My in-laws took to the new stuff (Three Stepper "Water & Spirit" salvation, no pants on women and no uncut on women) with all the zeal of new converts. But every time the old family picture books came out there were many inevitable questions. I especially like the pics of the church picnics where all of the Pentecostal ladies are wearing slacks and have trimmed bangs. Then I'd pull out a recent Pentecostal Herald and see the same ladies, older now and with their hair done up in beehive fashion.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by glorians

Then you should have brought that up with your local pastor..

I work as a military, dress up in a military clothing, but when church and when opportunity permits, I obey what my church standard is.. It doesnt have to be biblical in that manner... i dont see anything bad against clothing standards but moreso, i become more disciplined and if i can follow the rules of the armed forces to wear what i must wear whether it's 100 lbs of extra load, i can't complain. i gave my loyalty to the state, to the service, to the uniform... why can't you render that honor and loyalty to your church? moreso, if moslem women can follow that strict eye only (to be seen) mode of standard, if they can do that for Allah, I can do that for Jesus... (this is to point out that adhere to the standard of your church or get out of it! but before you get out of that church bcoz of its standards, gauge your self what state are you in your spirituality or youre just a sick brethren who's sick and tired to follow rules..... (im not saying in any abrupt manner but trying to point out something in this regard)



The other aspect of this is you dont believe in the standard to be biblical... in that sense, you dont have to leave your church if u think they are wrong, if u really love them, lead them... study with them, discuss with them, argue with them, debate with them.... but if u think oneness err in this area and u just left them for this reason, where is the love yo?! i dont know?! and trust me... you'll see in other churches that people argue in other different standards of their churches whether it be in regard with money, leadership, choir uniform, carpet color, color of paint of the church, etc.. etc.. hope u get my point. ;-)

I think most people want to see some sort of "eternal principle" behind their "church loyalties." Your service to our nation is commendable and from what you've said, it does appear to be based on noble principles.

When it comes to church I have always wanted a similar - even a higher! - set of principles to guide me. The teachings of the Bible itself provide that and anything that adds to or takes away from the Biblical standards strikes me as being profane.

When we had a large VA hospital in town it was a very common thing for the ladies in the service to approach their pastors here and seek some sort of waiver or understanding for their military requirements. With the closure of that VA hospital and a nearby Air Force base we don't have so many folks in the active duty service around any more so it's no longer such an issue.

My thought is, if you can't carry over your "heaven or hell" religious principles into the military life, then you probably should not have joined the military. If these are not "heaven or hell" issues for you - then what's your point?

Just have a female service member show up to a Sunday church service in BDU's or slacks of any kind. See if you aren't treated as a hell bound backslider. If the pants send you to hell at church, they will certainly send you to hell on base.

[Mirth1981]

Originally Posted by longhairgirl

Well, I have to say that I am 100% UPC. I just joined today, and will probably leave since I was under the impression that this was a UPC forum, and it is not (oops). I was really just looking for some fellowship like I have with my girlfriends after church, so this is not for me.

But I do feel compelled to respond to your post. From the other side. As I have said, I am 100% UPC...I was not raised in church, I've been to every church under the sun and studied everything from Buddist to Wicca. When the Lord found me, I knew this was the real thing

So, I joined the church at age 21, and got married at age 24. A year later, my husband left the church. I was devasted. I cried and cried to the Lord, I did things the "right" way...and my husband leaves the church! It was very hard on me and my child (I have 3 children now). My greatest concern was for my children...you see, I love this church, its standards, its doctrine. I want my children to love it too. Thank the Lord my husband has now been back in church for 2 years!

I say all this to say that I really admire your concern for your husband. I would hate for your objection to standards to drive a wedge into your family. It's sooooo hard for someone who tries to keep the churches standards to live with someone not in church. Keep on praying about this, and talk to your husband about his concerns. Coming from his point of view, its very scary when your other half leaves the church. I still have things in my house (TV....I can't stand it!) that haven't left from when my husband was out of church. Some things are not easily undone.

I hope I have not offended you in any way...I simply speak from the heart as one who has been on the other side. Your family will be in my prayers.

Hi longhairgirl,

I appreciate your prayers...You have not been offensive to me at all. You sound very sincere and I respect where you're coming from. I understand.

[Mirth1981]

I just finished reading through all the new posts. I really want to write a response, but I just got home from working all night, so I don't have the energy right now. Will be back later.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by glorians

Then you should have brought that up with your local pastor..

I work as a military, dress up in a military clothing, but when church and when opportunity permits, I obey what my church standard is.. It doesnt have to be biblical in that manner... i dont see anything bad against clothing standards but moreso, i become more disciplined and if i can follow the rules of the armed forces to wear what i must wear whether it's 100 lbs of extra load, i can't complain. i gave my loyalty to the state, to the service, to the uniform... why can't you render that honor and loyalty to your church? moreso, if moslem women can follow that strict eye only (to be seen) mode of standard, if they can do that for Allah, I can do that for Jesus... (this is to point out that adhere to the standard of your church or get out of it! but before you get out of that church bcoz of its standards, gauge your self what state are you in your spirituality or youre just a sick brethren who's sick and tired to follow rules..... (im not saying in any abrupt manner but trying to point out something in this regard)

The other aspect of this is you dont believe in the standard to be biblical... in that sense, you dont have to leave your church if u think they are wrong, if u really love them, lead them... study with them, discuss with them, argue with them, debate with them.... but if u think oneness err in this area and u just left them for this reason, where is the love yo?! i dont know?! and trust me... you'll see in other churches that people argue in other different standards of their churches whether it be in regard with money, leadership, choir uniform, carpet color, color of paint of the church, etc.. etc.. hope u get my point. ;-)

I'll respond to your second paragraph first. All the guilt trip stuff I see sickens me. I mean that in the most general sense possible. The people who leave or think of leaving are constantly asked, "What's wrong with you, couldn't you make your whole church see the truth." or "What's wrong with you, wheres your love?" or "What's wrong with you, couldn't you keep the standards anyway even if you didn't believe in them?" or "What's wrong with you, can't the keep the standards for Jesus?" I'll even give a scripture now. Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

There's another problem with your second paragraph also. Your trying to compare carpet color to the standards that people claim are derived from the bible. Some even came up with a special slogan for those standards; "holiness or hell". So, no you can't compare opinions about where money should go, who should be in leadership, choir uniform, carpet color, or paint color to these "holiness or hell" standards.

So in case its not already clear, let me enlighten you on why someone would leave over the standards. They don't leave the church because they don't love God or even the people there. The real reason is quite simple really. It's because they get sick and tired of hearing something constantly preached as biblical that they don't believe is biblical. They get sick and tired of seeing others looked down upon for not following what they believe are manmade standards.

Now as for your first paragraph, let me begin with a question. If the standards aren't biblical then why should the church preach them? You answered that in part already, you said it's because of discipline. But discipline from heaven is not in standards its in prayer and fasting.

One other thing. You can keep the standards for Jesus if you wish. I'll watch others do something for Jesus too. I'll watch them not keep the standards. And heres another scripture for you. Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by pelathais

There are a lot of different dynamics at work in different families. I wasn't raised in the UPC either but joined up as a teenager. My wife was born and raised into it by a set of parents with several generations of Oneness background - and they were very zealous for all of the new "holiness" stuff that was being introduced at the time.

My wife's mother stopped trimming her hair and her oldest girls' hair in the mid 1960's. My wife was young enough that she had never had her hair cut or trimmed. All of this was a new thing for them even though my mother-in-law's uncle was a disciple and successor to GT Haywood himself.
The UPC Ladies' Auxiliary Presidents from the 1970's and 1980's were both cousins to my MIL. Despite all of the "old fashioned holiness" appeal found in their publications and pics, they were all raised in godly Oneness Pentecostal homes without even a hint of the "uncut hair" teaching.

My in-laws took to the new stuff (Three Stepper "Water & Spirit" salvation, no pants on women and no uncut on women) with all the zeal of new converts. But every time the old family picture books came out there were many inevitable questions. I especially like the pics of the church picnics where all of the Pentecostal ladies are wearing slacks and have trimmed bangs. Then I'd pull out a recent Pentecostal Herald and see the same ladies, older now and with their hair done up in beehive fashion.

My paternal grandmother, her mother, (48 yrs a charter member of the
Methodist church), my mother, her mother, all received the Holy Ghost
in the 30's, 1933 on .. There was no UPC, yet they were relying on the
Spirit to lead and guide them..just like the Bible said, HE the spirit of truth
would do. To date, there are those that still follow the leading of the Spirit
and they have no problem with wearing their hair uncut. Un-cut hair didn't
start in the 1950's. I remember when some ladies in the church of Christ and
Methodist church, didn't cut their hair. I remember when most ladies in the
FBC, in our city, (over 150 yrs old, that wouldn't have been seen in pants IN
church, although they wore them to work, home, etc. The un-cut hair teach-
ing may have begun for some in the 50's but not for others. Life didn't start
when we were born. It isn't and never has been about us. It ALL about HIM!
There is nothing new under the sun!

Many didn't and still don't do a lot of things the world did/does. For years
women that worked out of the home would call me to see if I knew of any
of our ladies that would keep their children while they worked. But they
didn't want their children hearing about their faith. We trust you to take care
of our children but we don't want them hearing about your belief. Some even
let their children come to church until they got old enough to become con-
cerned about their souls. Then they were told they could go to any church
and get baptized but not the Pentecostal church.

I believe we could be in a generation much like the one Jesus spoke of when
he walked this earth. No wonder Jesus told those women in Jerusalem, "Don't
weep for me. Weep for your children. He addressed MOTHERS to weep for
their children. MOTHERS WILL LISTEN WHEN IT COMES TO THEIR CHILDREN"!
It is their GOD-given nature! I could say a lot more here but won't for now!
He knew what was going to happen in the not too distant future. The dest-
ruction of their city, Jerusalem. He wept over it and compared His love for
her as a mother hen doth her chicks. BUT you (Jewish fathers) would not! So
the mothers MUST weep! It was the religious fathers that didn't hear His
Voice. Mothers were not allowed to speak up. But they were following Jesus
and weeping for HIM. His disciples went and hid after His crucifixion for fear
of the Jews. The women had to go tell the disciples that Jesus was risen.
I wonder if mothers and fathers would weep today if they could see into the
future, a generation. Would there be weeping and wailing and gnashing of
teeth! Many are already weeping over their children and grandchildren. May
God have mercy upon all, in Jesus Name!

Falla39

[MawMaw]

Originally Posted by Falla39

My paternal grandmother, her mother, (48 yrs a charter member of the
Methodist church), my mother, her mother, all received the Holy Ghost
in the 30's, 1933 on .. There was no UPC, yet they were relying on the
Spirit to lead and guide them..just like the Bible said, HE the spirit of truth
would do. To date, there are those that still follow the leading of the Spirit
and they have no problem with wearing their hair uncut. Un-cut hair didn't
start in the 1950's. I remember when some ladies in the church of Christ and
Methodist church, didn't cut their hair. I remember when most ladies in the
FBC, in our city, (over 150 yrs old, that wouldn't have been seen in pants IN
church, although they wore them to work, home, etc. The un-cut hair teach-
ing may have begun for some in the 50's but not for others. Life didn't start
when we were born. It isn't and never has been about us. It ALL about HIM!
There is nothing new under the sun!

Many didn't and still don't do a lot of things the world did/does. For years
women that worked out of the home would call me to see if I knew of any
of our ladies that would keep their children while they worked. But they
didn't want their children hearing about their faith. We trust you to take care
of our children but we don't want them hearing about your belief. Some even
let their children come to church until they got old enough to become con-
cerned about their souls. Then they were told they could go to any church
and get baptized but not the Pentecostal church.

I believe we could be in a generation much like the one Jesus spoke of when
he walked this earth. No wonder Jesus told those women in Jerusalem, "Don't
weep for me. Weep for your children. He addressed MOTHERS to weep for
their children. MOTHERS WILL LISTEN WHEN IT COMES TO THEIR CHILDREN"!
It is their GOD-given nature! I could say a lot more here but won't for now!
He knew what was going to happen in the not too distant future. The dest-
ruction of their city, Jerusalem. He wept over it and compared His love for
her as a mother hen doth her chicks. BUT you (Jewish fathers) would not! So
the mothers MUST weep! It was the religious fathers that didn't hear His
Voice. Mothers were not allowed to speak up. But they were following Jesus
and weeping for HIM. His disciples went and hid after His crucifixion for fear
of the Jews. The women had to go tell the disciples that Jesus was risen.
I wonder if mothers and fathers would weep today if they could see into the
future, a generation. Would there be weeping and wailing and gnashing of
teeth! Many are already weeping over their children and grandchildren. May
God have mercy upon all, in Jesus Name!

Falla39

So true!!

I love reading your posts Sis Falla!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Falla39

there are those that still follow the leading of the Spirit
and they have no problem with wearing their hair uncut.

Something is awry. If following the Spirit means a woman will not cut her hair to "have long hair," does that mean a man is following the Spirit when he lets hair grow down his back and ensures it is trimmed and cut every so often so it is not "long/uncut"?

My point is that the Spirit and the Word agree. If a man cannot have hair down his back so long as he keeps it trimmed, then LONG does not equal UNCUT. NO amount of Spirit will lead one to think otherwise.

My opinion, anyway.

On another note, in regards to the "100% UPC" term that another person used, that scares me. I have never been nor am "100% any man-made organization". Saying we are 100% SOMETHING means we will believe whatever they teach whether we study it or not, or at least study the bible by LOOKING for what the fellowship teaches and not really looking for what the Bible actually is saying.

I am 100% Kingdom of God.