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  #91  
Old 03-27-2019, 10:44 AM
Spirit&Truth Spirit&Truth is offline
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Re: Oneness vs Monotheism

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Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
Sorry I didnt finish the post. I dont think anyone on this forum believes God "played theater". However we still believe God was in Christ.
I'm going to jump in here.... though I'm not sure I will regret it or not

I've been thinking and studying this topic a lot lately. I've been Oneness my entire life, and I literally have a paper I wrote on the topic in Bible college to prove that I know the arguments.

Recently a close friend of mine told me that he isn't "Oneness" or "Trinitarian" because the Bible doesn't use those terms and he doesn't want to confuse things. His statement of faith, remarkably, sounds about the same as what Esaias posted earlier. So similar that for a second I wondered if they are the same person! But I checked, and alas, we are all in different states.

Anyway.... what I have noticed is that if you ask your average Christian, whether Apostolic or otherwise, if Jesus is God, and almost unanimously the answer will be "yes." So for a long time I have believed that most trinitarian and oneness laypeople have similar views of God, but the debating happens more among pastors and theologians.

So for me now, I'm falling into the same boat as my friend. I just want to lean on what the Scripture says, and believe it! The challenge for me, in Oneness settings, is that while we lean on Scripture for our main arguments, there are other Scriptures that make us uncomfortable. Jesus praying to the Father generally makes us uncomfortable because we are taught that they are one and the same person. Really Jesus talking about the Father in general makes us uncomfortable, unless we start redefining words.... the "son" of God really means the "flesh" of God, for example. I know people who are uncomfortable calling Jesus the Son of God! And that's all well and good, but if we are truly honest, we know there is at least SOME form of separation between Jesus and the Father, at least pre-resurrection! None of us believe that Jesus was talking to himself, right? He said "not my will, but Thy will be done"! Can a single person have 2 separate wills?

Then if you ask us to answer these seeming contradictions between Jesus and the Father being the same person... it usually ends in "well it's definitely a mystery and hard for the human mind to comprehend." I don't like this, because the Trinitarians use the same argument when their doctrine makes no sense.

NOTE: I want to make clear, I consider myself to be Oneness in doctrine, and believe that it makes more sense than the Trinity doctrine. But we have work to do on explaining the position, and that shouldn't equate to cop-outs like "it's just too much for us to understand" because if that is true, then what is the point of having a doctrine on the topic at all?


EDIT: I also want to add that, obviously, this becomes most important in relation to baptism. If we believe that baptism is essential for salvation, then we will want to get it right, and the apostles baptised in the Name of Jesus (or the Name of the Lord, among other similar phrases) and do not mention a trinitarian formula.

Last edited by Spirit&Truth; 03-27-2019 at 10:53 AM.
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  #92  
Old 03-27-2019, 02:00 PM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Oneness vs Monotheism

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Originally Posted by Spirit&Truth View Post
I'm going to jump in here.... though I'm not sure I will regret it or not

I've been thinking and studying this topic a lot lately. I've been Oneness my entire life, and I literally have a paper I wrote on the topic in Bible college to prove that I know the arguments.

Recently a close friend of mine told me that he isn't "Oneness" or "Trinitarian" because the Bible doesn't use those terms and he doesn't want to confuse things. His statement of faith, remarkably, sounds about the same as what Esaias posted earlier. So similar that for a second I wondered if they are the same person! But I checked, and alas, we are all in different states.

Anyway.... what I have noticed is that if you ask your average Christian, whether Apostolic or otherwise, if Jesus is God, and almost unanimously the answer will be "yes." So for a long time I have believed that most trinitarian and oneness laypeople have similar views of God, but the debating happens more among pastors and theologians.

So for me now, I'm falling into the same boat as my friend. I just want to lean on what the Scripture says, and believe it! The challenge for me, in Oneness settings, is that while we lean on Scripture for our main arguments, there are other Scriptures that make us uncomfortable. Jesus praying to the Father generally makes us uncomfortable because we are taught that they are one and the same person. Really Jesus talking about the Father in general makes us uncomfortable, unless we start redefining words.... the "son" of God really means the "flesh" of God, for example. I know people who are uncomfortable calling Jesus the Son of God! And that's all well and good, but if we are truly honest, we know there is at least SOME form of separation between Jesus and the Father, at least pre-resurrection! None of us believe that Jesus was talking to himself, right? He said "not my will, but Thy will be done"! Can a single person have 2 separate wills?

Then if you ask us to answer these seeming contradictions between Jesus and the Father being the same person... it usually ends in "well it's definitely a mystery and hard for the human mind to comprehend." I don't like this, because the Trinitarians use the same argument when their doctrine makes no sense.

NOTE: I want to make clear, I consider myself to be Oneness in doctrine, and believe that it makes more sense than the Trinity doctrine. But we have work to do on explaining the position, and that shouldn't equate to cop-outs like "it's just too much for us to understand" because if that is true, then what is the point of having a doctrine on the topic at all?


EDIT: I also want to add that, obviously, this becomes most important in relation to baptism. If we believe that baptism is essential for salvation, then we will want to get it right, and the apostles baptised in the Name of Jesus (or the Name of the Lord, among other similar phrases) and do not mention a trinitarian formula.
Amen! that what you said is truth! "i know people who make them uncomfortable call Jesus the Son of God"
i listen a "oneness" preacher say "How our loved Fther could send His Son die for us? Which father could sacrifice his child? ..So the Father himself bacame man and died for us"!!!

Anyway i believe Jesus is the Father in flsh! But that flesh is what called the Son!
With the above example ,anyone who denies the Son ,is an Antichrist.
Do you observe that all gospels ,even the gospel of John and even the great revelation of Peter was "You are Jesus, the Son of the Living God'?
There is not a single verse that says God became a man! Or that Father became his son, or that God played 3 roles at the same time speaking AS the son etc.
When the Bible speaks about Son is real and literal Son of God. He is called the Son of God because he was born from the Spirit through Mary.
Jesus never said "i am the Father" He always aid that the Father was IN him.
God is Spirit ("the Spirit of Christ who spoke through the prophets") came IN flesh. That is ,He create a body ,a normal human being and the He came all his foulness IN him. He gave him His name and we saw God in the person of Jesus Christ. So God did not became flesh but came INside that flesh. And glorified after resurrection given him His Spirit.
If you agree ,then you are not alone! Listen here too!
  #93  
Old 03-27-2019, 02:32 PM
Spirit&Truth Spirit&Truth is offline
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Re: Oneness vs Monotheism

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Originally Posted by peter83 View Post
Amen! that what you said is truth! "i know people who make them uncomfortable call Jesus the Son of God"
i listen a "oneness" preacher say "How our loved Fther could send His Son die for us? Which father could sacrifice his child? ..So the Father himself bacame man and died for us"!!!

Anyway i believe Jesus is the Father in flsh! But that flesh is what called the Son!
With the above example ,anyone who denies the Son ,is an Antichrist.
Do you observe that all gospels ,even the gospel of John and even the great revelation of Peter was "You are Jesus, the Son of the Living God'?
There is not a single verse that says God became a man! Or that Father became his son, or that God played 3 roles at the same time speaking AS the son etc.
When the Bible speaks about Son is real and literal Son of God. He is called the Son of God because he was born from the Spirit through Mary.
Jesus never said "i am the Father" He always aid that the Father was IN him.
God is Spirit ("the Spirit of Christ who spoke through the prophets") came IN flesh. That is ,He create a body ,a normal human being and the He came all his foulness IN him. He gave him His name and we saw God in the person of Jesus Christ. So God did not became flesh but came INside that flesh. And glorified after resurrection given him His Spirit.
If you agree ,then you are not alone! Listen here too!
So who is Jesus speaking to in the garden? When He says "not MY will but THINE be done" whose wills are they? This is the question that I personally have trouble answering without using a bunch of jargon and redefining words.
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  #94  
Old 03-28-2019, 01:11 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Oneness vs Monotheism

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Originally Posted by Spirit&Truth View Post
So who is Jesus speaking to in the garden? When He says "not MY will but THINE be done" whose wills are they? This is the question that I personally have trouble answering without using a bunch of jargon and redefining words.
Τhe Son of God is praying (a human being like me and you, with his own will . Exactly like me and you ,while we have the Holy Spirit but we struggle make our decisions submissive to the will of God) to His Father ,to God
("i go to my Father and your Father ,to my God and your God" said Jesus after resurrection)
Jesus the Son of God inherit His glory form the Father (Spirit). He never said that He was the Father but he was the image of the Father, amen?

To your qiestion look also here (and actualy everywhere in the Bible)
"8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; (hE THAT HATH SEEN me the SON) and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? (hE DID NOT sAID ,i am the father! but the father is in me! in the human body of the son)the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: (agai! he said the word i speak to you are NOT OF MY SELF! NOT OF THE SON!) but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (THE FATHER THAT WWELLETH IN ME, the spoirit that dwells in my human bosy ,in the Son. He do the works.)
Amen brother? Do you now unsrstand the great revelation ? if yes which is?
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  #95  
Old 03-28-2019, 05:16 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Oneness vs Monotheism

[QUOTE=peter83;1560613]Τhe Son of God is praying (a human being like me and you, with his own will . Exactly like me and you ,while we have the Holy Spirit but we struggle make our decisions submissive to the will of God) to His Father ,to God
("i go to my Father and your Father ,to my God and your God" said Jesus after resurrection)
Jesus the Son of God inherit His glory form the Father (Spirit). He never said that He was the Father but he was the image of the Father, amen?

To your question look also here (and actually everywhere in the Bible)
"8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; (hE THAT HATH SEEN me the SON) and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? (hE DID NOT sAID ,i am the father! but the father is in me! in the human body of the son)the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: (agai! he said the word i speak to you are NOT OF MY SELF! NOT OF THE SON!) but the Father that dwells in me, he doeth the works. (THE FATHER THAT DWELLS IN ME?, THE spirit (God =spirit) that dwells to whom? the spirit that dwells in my human body ,so in the Son. He does the works.)That is why everyone who sees the Son he actually see the Father. Christ is the image OF the invisible God (Spirit).
Amen brother? Do you now understand the great revelation ? if yes which is?
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  #96  
Old 03-31-2019, 04:29 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Oneness vs Monotheism

[QUOTE=peter83;1560614]
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter83 View Post
Τhe Son of God is praying (a human being like me and you, with his own will . Exactly like me and you ,while we have the Holy Spirit but we struggle make our decisions submissive to the will of God) to His Father ,to God
("i go to my Father and your Father ,to my God and your God" said Jesus after resurrection)
Jesus the Son of God inherit His glory form the Father (Spirit). He never said that He was the Father but he was the image of the Father, amen?

To your question look also here (and actually everywhere in the Bible)
"8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; (hE THAT HATH SEEN me the SON) and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? (hE DID NOT sAID ,i am the father! but the father is in me! in the human body of the son)the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: (agai! he said the word i speak to you are NOT OF MY SELF! NOT OF THE SON!) but the Father that dwells in me, he doeth the works. (THE FATHER THAT DWELLS IN ME?, THE spirit (God =spirit) that dwells to whom? the spirit that dwells in my human body ,so in the Son. He does the works.)That is why everyone who sees the Son he actually see the Father. Christ is the image OF the invisible God (Spirit).
Amen brother? Do you now understand the great revelation ? if yes which is?
So do you tell people that whoever has seen you has seen the Father?

Is Jesus God? If He is God, why aren't you God? If He is NOT God, what do you do with the verses that directly call Him God?
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  #97  
Old 03-31-2019, 07:02 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Oneness vs Monotheism

[QUOTE=Esaias;1560752]
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Originally Posted by peter83 View Post

So do you tell people that whoever has seen you has seen the Father?

Is Jesus God? If He is God, why aren't you God? If He is NOT God, what do you do with the verses that directly call Him God?
1)I said that Jesus said "who sees me (the Son) he sees the Father"(the unvisible Spirit).(John 14)
2)Yes we Christians have to be a light and who sees us ,can see Jesus in us.Through us. But we are not like Jesus, He had the Spirit of God without limit!
3)I did not said Jesus is not God. I said that Jesus is the Father inside a human body. That is the Son and has the name of the Father. (This is the mystery "God manifest in flesh). NOT that the flesh was God or that God became flesh but he manifest in and through flesh, Through his Son.
So yes Jesus is God,and if you want (can you?) take it farther.. the Glory that the Son received was the glory that he had before the world was formed Not that pre-existed the Son, But that the Spirit of Jesus (Father) did all things through that body even when Jesus the man was not born. Thats why you see :"No man ever saw God". But from the other site :many "saw" God, and they saw Him "like a son of man" (Abraham,Jakob,Daniel,Ezekiel etc.) That was the Glorified body of the Spirit and that is the glory has the Son today... We saw God in the face of Jesus Christ..all things were made BY him and FOR him...(i dont know if you are able to understand, but there is a simplicity and a glory to all that! I feel a pleasure right now..i dont know how you thought that i said "Jesus is not God!!!?? Why you dont understand my Words? the problem is:

4 )From all that Scripture i posted, you observe just that? What you did not like in real?(tell me exactly what you did not like? ) How you just dont say AMEN to all that? maybe you forgot to tell me..
With Love and peace from my Lord God Jesus Christ!

Last edited by peter83; 03-31-2019 at 07:16 AM.
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  #98  
Old 03-31-2019, 08:49 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Oneness vs Monotheism

Very interesting discussion.
Esais, could you please post the verses you used for your statement of faith?

As many said Oneness is a term to describe a doctrine, like Trinity is. It is a terminology not found in the Bible. Just semantics. Imagine the early church: "are you Christian?" "yes" "of the Sabellius, Nicolaites, Gnostics?". Nowadays we have the same, just terms to group people that believe in a specific way. You won't go around quoting scriptures when people ask you what kind of Christian group you are.

The phrases “Jesus is the Father” is not in the Bible, it is a conclusion of ours. You can agree or disagree. Some people don’t like those conclusions because they like to be way more accurate. It depends who you are discussing it with. I personally Ok with it depending to who I'm talking to, but I can add more context if you want: "Jesus Christ is God manifested in flesh." There you go. The Spirit is the Father of Jesus according to the Gospel. God is Spirit according to the Epistles. Jesus is the image of God according the the Epistles too. Jesus said that who saw him, saw the Father. The Father dwells in Jesus according to him.
Therefore, when you worship Jesus you are worshiping God, but not the flesh, and therefore you are worshiping the Father that dwells in him, because you must worship in Spirit and the Father looks for those worshipers. Don't you see that the terms Father and Son are terms in the incarnation context? They describe the incarnation to you.

I tried to use as many Biblical expressions as I could. Simple.

Now let's go to the name, Jesus is the name given by the angle to the Son of Man, which because was born of the Spirit is also called the Son of God. Jesus said that he was revealing the name of the Father to the people, and that he inherited the name from the Father. Well, are you ready for logic this time? What name Jesus revealed? What name Paul indicated that is the only name for Salvation? The Father dwelling in the flesh was given the name "Jesus", announced by the Angel, given by himself, Yahweh my salvation!! There is no name "Jesus" without the incarnation.

For example, if Jesus is the Father then the Son is the Father? Wrong.
You need to add more to the proposition and clarify terms.
“He/God was manifested in flesh”, “in him dwells the fullness of the Godhead”, “I’m in the Father... the Father is in me... the Father that dwells in me...”
Those phrases are a lot more accurate and carry the context so people don’t get lost/wrong with logic.

Last edited by coksiw; 03-31-2019 at 09:50 AM.
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  #99  
Old 03-31-2019, 10:20 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Oneness vs Monotheism

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Very interesting discussion.
Esais, could you please post the verses you used for your statement of faith?

As many said Oneness is a term to describe a doctrine, like Trinity is. It is a terminology not found in the Bible. Just semantics. Imagine the early church: "are you Christian?" "yes" "of the Sabellius, Nicolaites, Gnostics?". Nowadays we have the same, just terms to group people that believe in a specific way. You won't go around quoting scriptures when people ask you what kind of Christian group you are.

The phrases “Jesus is the Father” is not in the Bible, it is a conclusion of ours. You can agree or disagree. Some people don’t like those conclusions because they like to be way more accurate. It depends who you are discussing it with. I personally Ok with it depending to who I'm talking to, but I can add more context if you want: "Jesus Christ is God manifested in flesh." There you go. The Spirit is the Father of Jesus according to the Gospel. God is Spirit according to the Epistles. Jesus is the image of God according the the Epistles too. Jesus said that who saw him, saw the Father. The Father dwells in Jesus according to him.
Therefore, when you worship Jesus you are worshiping God, but not the flesh, and therefore you are worshiping the Father that dwells in him, because you must worship in Spirit and the Father looks for those worshipers. Don't you see that the terms Father and Son are terms in the incarnation context? They describe the incarnation to you.

I tried to use as many Biblical expressions as I could. Simple.

Now let's go to the name, Jesus is the name given by the angle to the Son of Man, which because was born of the Spirit is also called the Son of God. Jesus said that he was revealing the name of the Father to the people, and that he inherited the name from the Father. Well, are you ready for logic this time? What name Jesus revealed? What name Paul indicated that is the only name for Salvation? The Father dwelling in the flesh was given the name "Jesus", announced by the Angel, given by himself, Yahweh my salvation!! There is no name "Jesus" without the incarnation.

For example, if Jesus is the Father then the Son is the Father? Wrong.
You need to add more to the proposition and clarify terms.
“He/God was manifested in flesh”, “in him dwells the fullness of the Godhead”, “I’m in the Father... the Father is in me... the Father that dwells in me...”
Those phrases are a lot more accurate and carry the context so people don’t get lost/wrong with logic.
Hi. Amen ,the phraseology you use is biblical , exactly what the Bible said and that is the Truth of all Christians.
The problem i think starts because of Theology. Many people recognise that Jesus is God but are enable to brake it down from Scripture.
i listened a preacher say: "How can a person give his son for sacrifice? Is there any parent would give the life of their children? How Trinitarians say that God gave his own Son to die? No! God himself died for us"
So when theology contradict Scripture is dangerous.
(Peter got the revelation from the Father that Jesus is the Son of God, Paul preached to the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God, John righted his gospel for us to "believe that Jesus is the Son of God" ..Who ever fallows the doctrine of Christ has both "the Father and the Son" and this is the eternal life "to know You the only one God and Jesus Christ who You had send ,"
If our theology find trouble when those words are preached..then we have to change our vies.)
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Old 03-31-2019, 12:56 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Oneness vs Monotheism

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Originally Posted by peter83 View Post
Hi. Amen ,the phraseology you use is biblical , exactly what the Bible said and that is the Truth of all Christians.
The problem i think starts because of Theology. Many people recognise that Jesus is God but are enable to brake it down from Scripture.
i listened a preacher say: "How can a person give his son for sacrifice? Is there any parent would give the life of their children? How Trinitarians say that God gave his own Son to die? No! God himself died for us"
So when theology contradict Scripture is dangerous.
(Peter got the revelation from the Father that Jesus is the Son of God, Paul preached to the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God, John righted his gospel for us to "believe that Jesus is the Son of God" ..Who ever fallows the doctrine of Christ has both "the Father and the Son" and this is the eternal life "to know You the only one God and Jesus Christ who You had send ,"
If our theology find trouble when those words are preached..then we have to change our vies.)
So it seems to me, hoping I’m not missing anything (I didn’t read all 10 pages of discussion) that you don’t have a problem with oneness, but with some terms that people use to explain it like roles or modes of manifestation, correct?

Well if that’s the case, if it works for you to not use them then good. Take into account that in this world full of the trinity doctrine and JW, those terms can help people to understand it by contrasting with the trinity or unitary.
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