Irvin Baxter

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by CalledOut238

I see no where in scripture that supports your contention of the resurrected saints going back to their graves. Others may take peoples word for it, but I will stick to the scriptures.

Matthew 27:51 (KJV) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Selah

My contention? I asked you questions, or did you not see the question marks?

Listen, tell us what happened to the ones who came out of the tombs. Did they have immortality? Was this a temporary resurrection where they would die again? How old were these dead? Are these recent dead like Christ was? Whose was in the grave for three, they were in for four?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

My contention? I asked you questions, or did you not see the question marks?

Listen, tell us what happened to the ones who came out of the tombs. Did they have immortality? Was this a temporary resurrection where they would die again? How old were these dead? Are these recent dead like Christ was? Whose was in the grave for three, they were in for four?

Why does it say many bodies of the saints arose, etc? Seems like strange way to speak of dead people coming back to life? I would expect to read something like "many saints arose" etc, not "the bodies of many saints"?

Also, it seems to say the graves were opened at His death, but the bodies did not arise until after His resurrection. Interestingly, it doesn't say they arose AT His resurrection, but AFTER His resurrection.

In Acts 2, it seems David was not one of them?

[CalledOut238]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

My contention? I asked you questions, or did you not see the question marks?

Listen, tell us what happened to the ones who came out of the tombs. Did they have immortality? Was this a temporary resurrection where they would die again? How old were these dead? Are these recent dead like Christ was? Whose was in the grave for three, they were in for four?

I did edit one part of my comment after realizing there were question marks. Apparently did not edit the first part so I apologize for not recognizing them when first replying.

Proverbs 10:19 (KJV) In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

Selah

[CalledOut238]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Why does it say many bodies of the saints arose, etc? Seems like strange way to speak of dead people coming back to life? I would expect to read something like "many saints arose" etc, not "the bodies of many saints"?
Also, it seems to say the graves were opened at His death, but the bodies did not arise until after His resurrection. Interestingly, it doesn't say they arose AT His resurrection, but AFTER His resurrection.

The word usage in Matthew 27 is almost identical to the language of the resurrection prophecy of Ezekiel 37. Most people who read scriptures like to apply them to themselves and with current events. This promise in Ezekiel was for the faithful before Christ. An explanation for them resurrecting afterwards is Christ was not yet glorified. This also coincides with 1 Peter 3:19 showing that he must set them free first. Revelation 1:18 also signifies that the resurrection for all his children is in his hands now by having the keys to hell and death.

Matthew 27:51 (KJV) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Ezekiel 37:12 (KJV) Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

1 Peter 3:19 (KJV) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

Revelation 1:18 (KJV) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Originally Posted by Esaias

In Acts 2, it seems David was not one of them?

I have addressed this before but would like to add a few more comments to put these scriptures in right context. “He is dead and buried,” is past tense. His sepulchre (grave) is present tense; and identifies his tomb, not his body. Building an argument around Strong's G2250: hēmera for day is weak. It can be literal day from dusk to dawn or figurative for an undefined period. And David did stay in the grave until Christ fulfilled all. I can only hope that David would have been among the rest of the faithful that resurrected that day.

Acts 2:29 (KJV) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.

Acts 2: 30- 36 Peter was referring to the prophecy of Christ being the promise to the House of David. Christ did fulfill this prophecy and conquered the enemy of death. The first part of the sentence is referring to David before the resurrection that he was dead in the ground. Remember capitalized LORD refers to our God and lower case lord is referring to David. The second part has been fulfilled when Jesus conquered mankind’s last enemy death.

1 Corinthians 15:26 (KJV) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Selah

[Esaias]

Later, I will put my thoughts into order, but for now, based on my research, I have concluded the following:

1. The error of Hymenaeus, and the error among the Thessalonians, and one of the errors addressed in Hebrews ch 6, is due to the event described in Matthew 27:51-53
2. John 3:13 was written to combat those same errors
3. Matt 27:51-53 itself was written to combat the Hymenaean and Thessalonian error
4. The errors mentioned in 1 are that the resurrection had either already happened, or had already commenced.
5. The errors mentioned in 1 were due to reports circulating among certain Jews concerning the event described in Matt 27:51-53
6. Matt wrote a description of the event using particular language in order to both address the error that had developed as well as to CORRECT the error that had developed
7. If Matt 27:51-53 describes people resurrecting as immortal and glorified, then there is a series of major issues that develop regarding the textual integrity of Matthew, the New Testament, the Old Testament, and thus the entire Bible.
8. If Matt 27:51-53 describes people resurrecting as immortal and glorified, then there is a series of major issues that develop regarding the idea of apostolic unity, as it would then become apparent that Pauline Christianity (and likely Johannine Christianity) and Matthean Christianity were at odds concerning a major doctrine about resurrection.

There are a few other considerations and points I intend to make as well, but those are the major ones. I also intend to demonstrate the wherefore's and why's of each point. I'm just a bit busy today and occupied with another subject.

[Carl]

Originally Posted by CalledOut238

The word usage in Matthew 27 is almost identical to the language of the resurrection prophecy of Ezekiel 37. Most people who read scriptures like to apply them to themselves and with current events. This promise in Ezekiel was for the faithful before Christ. An explanation for them resurrecting afterwards is Christ was not yet glorified. This also coincides with 1 Peter 3:19 showing that he must set them free first. Revelation 1:18 also signifies that the resurrection for all his children is in his hands now by having the keys to hell and death.

Matthew 27:51 (KJV) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Ezekiel 37:12 (KJV) Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

1 Peter 3:19 (KJV) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

Revelation 1:18 (KJV) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.



I have addressed this before but would like to add a few more comments to put these scriptures in right context. “He is dead and buried,” is past tense. His sepulchre (grave) is present tense; and identifies his tomb, not his body. Building an argument around Strong's G2250: hēmera for day is weak. It can be literal day from dusk to dawn or figurative for an undefined period. And David did stay in the grave until Christ fulfilled all. I can only hope that David would have been among the rest of the faithful that resurrected that day.

Acts 2:29 (KJV) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.

Acts 2: 30- 36 Peter was referring to the prophecy of Christ being the promise to the House of David. Christ did fulfill this prophecy and conquered the enemy of death. The first part of the sentence is referring to David before the resurrection that he was dead in the ground. Remember capitalized LORD refers to our God and lower case lord is referring to David. The second part has been fulfilled when Jesus conquered mankind’s last enemy death.

1 Corinthians 15:26 (KJV) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Selah

Is there a difference between death being conquered and death being destroyed?

[CalledOut238]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Later, I will put my thoughts into order, but for now, based on my research, I have concluded the following:
1. The error of Hymenaeus, and the error among the Thessalonians, and one of the errors addressed in Hebrews ch 6, is due to the event described in Matthew 27:51-53
7. If Matt 27:51-53 describes people resurrecting as immortal and glorified, then there is a series of major issues that develop regarding the textual integrity of Matthew, the New Testament, the Old Testament, and thus the entire Bible.
8. If Matt 27:51-53 describes people resurrecting as immortal and glorified, then there is a series of major issues that develop regarding the idea of apostolic unity, as it would then become apparent that Pauline Christianity (and likely Johannine Christianity) and Matthean Christianity were at odds concerning a major doctrine about resurrection.

I had already addressed Hymenaeus teaching in 2Timothy 2:18 because this is a typical default position. I guess if you use his name multiple times; that makes me guilty by association, and a proponent of Hymenaeus? I will only address some of the points you made. Hymenaeus and Philetus false teaching was that the resurrection was finished or had been fulfilled. This fulfilled teaching diminished the hope of saints looking for the second coming of Christ. These were Judaizers blending the tradition of the elders with the new covenant. How can the resurrection be completed when the one who has power to resurrect lives forever more?

2 Timothy 2:18 (KJV) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 (KJV) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

John 11:25 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

In Hebraic eschatological view there are two ages, the Mosaic Age and the Messianic Age. The Mosaic Age would end with the coming of the Messiah. One must grasp this concept to understand the Hebraic mindset. Where they erred was their belief that the messianic kingdom was a physical and not a spiritual kingdom. When Adam sinned he spiritually died yet continued to live in his fleshly body. This was the law of sin and death that Christ became the sacrifice to atone for since the beginning. When he said it was finished on the cross this gave the spiritual life back to those imprisoned by of our adversary. The sacrifice made would allow the relationship between our Creator and creation to be reconciled. Jesus stated that he must fulfill all that was written of him when he walked the earth in a fleshly body.

Hebrews 11:16 (KJV) But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Luke 24:44 KJV And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

We need to consider the context of scriptures before making definitive assumptions. The day of the Lord in the Old Testament was of judgment. The day of the Lord in the New Testament was of hope. After the resurrection of Christ there proceeded a period of transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. The fulfillment of the Old and the ushering in of the New covenant. When Titus destroyed the Temple in 70 AD the Day of the Lord was completed in judgment for the Old Covenant. As born again believers before me; living today and forever more, I look for the blessed appearing of my Savior.

2Timothy 4:1 (KJV) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2Peter 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

As I said, I do not feel that I have it all figured out. Whether or not those who were raised in Matthew had a spiritual or glorified body is debatable. For most of the Hebrews the resurrection of the dead was not an organic resurrection of the physical body rather it was the raising of the spiritual body from Sheol. I believe they had this notion from the story of Saul and the Witch of Endor. We see Samuel being called up from Sheol because Saul could not hear from the Lord and was desperate. We see a man who could be identified by Saul by his appearance, but his visage comparison to gods implies a spiritual connotation. But Ezekiel’s prophecy; towards the children of Israel, was that our Heavenly Father would bring their flesh and spirit back into them.

1Samuel 28:13 (KJV) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

Ezekiel 37:5 (KJV) Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

The children of Israel had the hope of a resurrection which can be seen through Martha’s discussion with Jesus before the miracle of Lazarus. It seems the early Church believed the resurrection was of the spiritual body; and not of the physical body, until we would be changed like him. There is an interesting scripture in 1 Corinthians that separates the saving of the spirit; and the destruction of flesh, that supports this teaching. When this metamorphosis happens is irrelevant to me: because whether a spiritual or glorified body, I am alive in Christ.

John 11:23 (KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

1 Corinthians 5:5 (KJV) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 John 3:2 (KJV) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The Day of the Lord; or Day of Christ, is the second coming of Christ. Arguing about immortality; spiritual and glorified bodies is unprofitable, because those who are born again live in Christ. Christ’s blood wiped away all the sins of the faithful before and after him that the blood of animals could not atone. Christ made atonement for all those in the future; who put their faith in him, being born again. We know in the Kingdom that the first shall be last and last shall be first. Our Heavenly Father is sovereign and true. However; the promises given to the Old Testament Saints to be freed from prison, should not be confused with the call of the final trump.

Luke 20:38 (KJV) For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Matthew 19:30 (KJV) But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Selah

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Why does it say many bodies of the saints arose, etc? Seems like strange way to speak of dead people coming back to life? I would expect to read something like "many saints arose" etc, not "the bodies of many saints"?

Also, it seems to say the graves were opened at His death, but the bodies did not arise until after His resurrection. Interestingly, it doesn't say they arose AT His resurrection, but AFTER His resurrection.

In Acts 2, it seems David was not one of them?

Your Kung Fu is very good

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Later, I will put my thoughts into order, but for now, based on my research, I have concluded the following:

1. The error of Hymenaeus, and the error among the Thessalonians, and one of the errors addressed in Hebrews ch 6, is due to the event described in Matthew 27:51-53
2. John 3:13 was written to combat those same errors
3. Matt 27:51-53 itself was written to combat the Hymenaean and Thessalonian error
4. The errors mentioned in 1 are that the resurrection had either already happened, or had already commenced.
5. The errors mentioned in 1 were due to reports circulating among certain Jews concerning the event described in Matt 27:51-53
6. Matt wrote a description of the event using particular language in order to both address the error that had developed as well as to CORRECT the error that had developed
7. If Matt 27:51-53 describes people resurrecting as immortal and glorified, then there is a series of major issues that develop regarding the textual integrity of Matthew, the New Testament, the Old Testament, and thus the entire Bible.
8. If Matt 27:51-53 describes people resurrecting as immortal and glorified, then there is a series of major issues that develop regarding the idea of apostolic unity, as it would then become apparent that Pauline Christianity (and likely Johannine Christianity) and Matthean Christianity were at odds concerning a major doctrine about resurrection.

There are a few other considerations and points I intend to make as well, but those are the major ones. I also intend to demonstrate the wherefore's and why's of each point. I'm just a bit busy today and occupied with another subject.

Looking forward to reading your post on this subject.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Did Lazarus die after Jesus called Him forth from his tomb?