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  #151  
Old 02-04-2021, 10:08 AM
Originalist Originalist is online now
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by james34 View Post
Also someone should explain how the will of God from the beginning changed , if God doesn’t change.
Do you all suggest that God accepted what he abhors?

He said, “ I hate putting away”.

The Law, ALL of it, was brought in because of sin. Paul even notes that salvation had always been by faith, and that the instituting of the Law by God did not change that. While observing even the moral code cannot justify us, it still demonstrates the holy character of God. The Law is spiritual while we are carnal. That part of Law that allowed for remarriage was valid. But divorce was never God's intention, particularly over trivial things as was becoming common among Jewish men. Jesus made it clear that God had only told Moses to insert that into the Law for protecting innocent women from the hard hearts of their husbands. Jesus showed them the severity of the Law by saying they would be still be held guilty for something God allowed!! Jesus was not instituting a new Law or saying "now e will go back to the original intent." He was saying that the female victims in these tragedies were guiltless one moment and condemned sinners the next. Nor is he invalidating second marriages. On the contrary, those men were stuck in the second marriages, by the decree of God. They could only throw themselves on the mercy of God for their past sinful decisions.
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  #152  
Old 02-04-2021, 07:49 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is online now
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

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Originally Posted by james34 View Post
Fornication is before marriage, adultery is after marriage
To the people who were under the law Moses allowed a writ of divorcement if the spouse was found to have committed fornication. That was supposed to be pure. This is a whole different culture than today. Where people are rarely virgins when entering marriage.
The fornication clause was only applicable to those who lived under Moses law, up until Jesus brought the gospel/will of God. Which we know from the beginning and now reinstated did not condone putting away even in a situation of unfaithfulness.
Remember what God said to Israel, ďIím married to youĒ
This he said because he wanted the relationship fixed , because it was the only righteous alternative. This is also Gods view on marriage. Fix it or remain unmarried.
Brother James, I am going to do my best to explain to you tactfully and respectfully how you are wrong. The problem with your doctrine lies in the incorrect definition of adultery and fornication. Please donít let your ego prevent you from coming to the knowledge of the truth. The bolder portion above is a common misconception. It leads to the teaching of false doctrine. And my experience is that it all comes down to what fornication and adultery really mean. The correct definition. This post may run a little long but please read it and consider it carefully. Letís begin with the official definitions of fornication and adultery.

noun
for∑​ni∑​ca∑​tion | \ ˌfȯr-nə-ˈkā-shən \
Collegiate Definition
: consensual (see CONSENSUAL sense 2) sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other
ó compare ADULTERY

noun
adul∑​tery | \ ə-ˈdəl-t(ə-)rē \
plural adul​ter​ies
Collegiate Definition
: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than that person's current spouse or partner
also : an act of adultery

So your definition of adultery is correct, but your definition of fornication is not. Because all adultery IS fornication. But all fornication is not necessarily adultery. In the same way that all roses are flowers but all flowers are certainly not roses. To commit adultery a person has to be married because adultery is sexual intercourse between someone who is married with someone whom they are not married to. This is also fornication.

However, if you carefully read the definition of fornication, you see that it is defined as consensual intercourse between two persons who are not married to each other. They may both be married, in which case it would be adultery as well. But regardless if they are both married to someone else or only one of them is, or neither of them are, it is fornication. But to commit adultery, a person must be married.

Fornication is the broader category that ALL consensual sex outside of marriage falls under. Adultery is fornication that is specific to married people having consensual sex with anyone who is not their spouse.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion.
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  #153  
Old 02-04-2021, 10:04 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

Biblically, adultery is classed as a type of fornication - Ezekiel ch 16 describes the spiritual adultery of Jerusalem as fornication.
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  #154  
Old 02-04-2021, 10:19 PM
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

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Originally Posted by james34 View Post
Sorry the fornication clause doesn’t fit the rest of New Testament scripture. I may be off on the “ it being only for those who lived under the law”, but fornication is the act before marriage, so address it any way you like.
What do you mean "the fornication clause DOESN'T FIT the rest of NT scripture"? That sounds like saying "this passage doesn't agree with my beliefs, so I will move the passage instead of moving my beliefs."

The law required a writ of divorce if a man was going to put away his wife - EXCEPT if the marriage union was UNLAWFUL due to fornication - which means "prohibited cohabitation". In other words, a prohibited (or FRAUDULENT) "marriage" was simply ANULLED. There was no divorce, it was simply null and void from the beginning. No writ of divorce was necessary because no actual marriage was recognised by the law as having taken place. Jesus affirmed this in His statement, He affirmed it was correct. No "putting away" without a bill or writ of divorce was allowable EXCEPT IT BE FOR FORNICATION.

An actual marriage required a writ or bill of divorce. Honestly, I don't see any evidence anything changed between what Moses said and what Jesus said. I also see that all this was connected to an attempt by Pharisees to embroil Jesus in a debate in order to attempt to discredit Him. So His answers must be taken in that light as well.

Like I said in the beginning of the thread, it is a difficult subject, but I haven't seen anybody present an understanding that takes ALL the data into account.

I just had my 28th anniversary today. I am thankful I have not had to put my opinions or beliefs on this subject to the test in my own life. I think we can all agree people are better off doing it right the first time, amen?
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  #155  
Old 02-05-2021, 03:40 AM
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Brother James, I am going to do my best to explain to you tactfully and respectfully how you are wrong. The problem with your doctrine lies in the incorrect definition of adultery and fornication. Please donít let your ego prevent you from coming to the knowledge of the truth. The bolder portion above is a common misconception. It leads to the teaching of false doctrine. And my experience is that it all comes down to what fornication and adultery really mean. The correct definition. This post may run a little long but please read it and consider it carefully. Letís begin with the official definitions of fornication and adultery.

noun
for∑​ni∑​ca∑​tion | \ ˌfȯr-nə-ˈkā-shən \
Collegiate Definition
: consensual (see CONSENSUAL sense 2) sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other
ó compare ADULTERY

noun
adul∑​tery | \ ə-ˈdəl-t(ə-)rē \
plural adul​ter​ies
Collegiate Definition
: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than that person's current spouse or partner
also : an act of adultery

So your definition of adultery is correct, but your definition of fornication is not. Because all adultery IS fornication. But all fornication is not necessarily adultery. In the same way that all roses are flowers but all flowers are certainly not roses. To commit adultery a person has to be married because adultery is sexual intercourse between someone who is married with someone whom they are not married to. This is also fornication.

However, if you carefully read the definition of fornication, you see that it is defined as consensual intercourse between two persons who are not married to each other. They may both be married, in which case it would be adultery as well. But regardless if they are both married to someone else or only one of them is, or neither of them are, it is fornication. But to commit adultery, a person must be married.

Fornication is the broader category that ALL consensual sex outside of marriage falls under. Adultery is fornication that is specific to married people having consensual sex with anyone who is not their spouse.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion.
And I think Jesus used this term in the context of divorce to cover all the bases. What if a woman was doing some strange practice like bestiality? That technically would not be adultery but it would be porneo.
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  #156  
Old 02-05-2021, 05:59 PM
james34 james34 is offline
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

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Originally Posted by peter83 View Post
Fornication = sexual sin out of marriage, single persons can do fornication
Adultery =Sexual sin whithine marriage, whaen one of the couple leaves the other member to marry an other, or if they broke up and then marry an other, or when one of the two having sex with an other ,then is called adultery.

So only if there is FORNICATION (premarital, or unlawful relationship they can and must brake it up and then if they repent they can avtually mary ,because they were never again married) Otherwise if they are not in fornication and are properly married: they can divorce but remain unmarried!
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Now look what is adultery and what Matthew spoke to the Jews!
-First keep in mind that Jwes asked if there was divorce primitive for any reason. Adultery was not considered a reason to divorce and remarry because adultery was punished by DEATH!
-Second see that the fornication is a separate and different act (sin) than adultry:Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:


and so third and last look why marriage is the solution for fornication and not that fornication the exception for adultery:. 2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
So my Apostolic Pentecostal Oneness friend and brother Michael , to avoid fornication ,which is every unlawful relationship ,out of marriage Paul suggest Marriage. But except be for the reason of fornication no man had the right to divorce his wife and if that happen, let them be UNMARRIED or? Or reconciled to her ex-wife.

Also keep in mind that the marriage is so holy because reflects the relationship between Jesus and his Wife (Church). Jesus has one and only Church! So the man "love your wife as th Lord loves the Church"
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  #157  
Old 02-05-2021, 07:16 PM
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

In your experience how much is divorce a problem in the church?
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  #158  
Old 02-05-2021, 07:40 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is online now
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

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Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
In your experience how much is divorce a problem in the church?
Iím not sure who you are asking but it seems to be pretty much the same as it is outside the church.
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  #159  
Old 02-05-2021, 07:40 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is online now
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

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Originally Posted by james34 View Post
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  #160  
Old 02-05-2021, 07:48 PM
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Iím not sure who you are asking but it seems to be pretty much the same as it is outside the church.
Open question to everyone. The divorce rate is like 40 to 50% I think, you find that the case in your church as well?
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