Glorified Flesh?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

What is really up with ME?

. Yes you. I've been trying to provide scripture here and show you how your Doctrine is wrong, and you won't respond with anything but Jabber.

Mike, we have been through this before, I have thrown my Scriptures at you and you have thrown yours at me. I realize futility when I see it, you are not going to be convinced otherwise and neither am I.

what's being convinced got to do with any of this? I'm trying to see what you believe and he haven't laid down so I can look at it and deal with it. I can't remember anything you ever said about it other than these little quips and jabs. You always come off with a mocking attitude like we believe in a five foot six Jesus floating around heaven, and you never took it seriously from the start anyway. Always this attitude.

I am wanting to know the details of why you believe what you do, and every time you always had this attitude that I am wasting your time, so don't say we've done what I am asking before You never dialogued with me for just the sake of explanaton and answering responses. It's always bee the same short discussion.

You see it one way and I see it another. Yes, it is two whether you want to admit it or not.

Sorry if I do not take your word for it I have proposed that the exact same way you believe in oneness with a distinction of humanity and deity while Jesus was on earth is the same with Jesus in heaven since the ascension.

You yourself told me that you have to have two to have oneness. You are the one that told me that I don't believe oneness, because I don't believe in the divine flesh up in heaven with God the father.

This is your problem. First of all, I do not believe in TWO GODS and have never told you I did. Two manifestations, yes. Just like Jesus in the earth. Secondly, you claim I believe in divine flesh which is absolutely false. So, if you would just stop thinking you know my position and actually read what I say and provide explanation, you might engage in a half decent discussion.

So I guess I am not oneness in your sense, I am an ardent One God believer. That is Bible Mike, it still is.

Your views are not bible just because you say they are, and that's all you have been doing is saying they are.

Yes, I come on here and driveby post, and will continue to do so.

Engage with you in a long term discussion on this? Probably not. You, like Larry Smith have an agenda, thus your books and writings. The problem is, I am not interested in your false doctrines.

Agenda? What is my agenda aside from preaching truth and sharing it?

You are not interested in truth as far as I can tell, and that is not saying if you disagree with me you do not have truth. I am saying your refusal to discuss has ALWAYS occurred, and that is why it's futile.

Maybe Nicodemus will actually discuss here. You obviously can't. If you DID discuss in detail, I cannot recall.

I know you never take anyone who disagrees with you seriously, and pawn it off as being unable to change my mind, because you do not even know that I deny divine flesh teaching, and I cannot recall you ever seriously discussing this without that attitude you are showing here. The time you take wasting time by saying you will not discuss could have been used to provide scripture showing your view for not just me, but all the readers. I wasted years with James LeDreay, himself, but realizing that others are reading and can be helped.

If You'd stop assuming things and making up this nonsense about agendas and thinking that you've already discussed this and that I'm simply not going to listen to you, then we can let God be God to know the intents of hearts, and talk. I won't hold my breath.

Wow. Another LeDeay who thinks he's explained things and done things properly and covered it, and never did anything at all.

You have never discussed this in detail.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Why bother?

Agreed. Waste of time,

hopefully Nicodemus will actually discuss this with us.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Just kidding. Looking forward to a detailed presentation of Bible doctrine showing that Jesus is no longer human (I assume that's at least part of the topic here).

Not sure if your joking on the fact that you believe Jesus is in human form?

[Nicodemus1968]

Mike,
You need to break your thoughts in smaller spaces, not thesis form? The Bible can be discussed, iron sharpeners iron, yet the you take a whole page form your book or whatever gets overwhelming to have a discussion. In a sense your having a conversation by yourself.

[Nicodemus1968]

First things first, we all can agree that we have biblical views that we will stand for, I may not believe like any of you on some things and the other way around. Im going to come from a spiritual mindset. I don't believe this physical world and the elements of it is what God desires, I believe the world we belong to once we have been adopted is the spiritual kingdom of Jesus Christ. Just keep that in mind, and ill keep in mind how some of you believe.

[Nicodemus1968]

Genesis 1:26
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

I trust we all believe in One God, not two or three! I believe the Lord isn't talking to himself or another god, or speaking in the future to the body of Christ (church). I believe he is talking to his creation, we see in the garden that Eve was not at all shocked by the serpent taking to her. Its common sense that you bear the image of your parents.

Genesis 3:19
"...for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

I Corinthains 15:49
"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."

Everyone that has been born of a women was born with corruptible nature, that is the natural man. David said in sin did my mother conceive me. We were created on the same day as beasts or as one Good Elder put it, Sixth Day Man in one of his pamphlets. This physical, fleshy man has a natural habit to commit sin, no one told me how to lie or cheat, steal etc. it came natural to me as a carnal, sinner human.

Romans 7:18
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

Paul here understands that in him is a war, do I sin and remain committing sin, or do I perform what my spirit desires and the only way we can stop the sin and perform the Good is by the Holy Ghost. The only way you can submit that fleshy, Carnal, Physical Beast Nature of man is to submit to Gods spirit. When you receive the Holy Ghost you go from corruptible to incorruptible, you are now Jesus's Bride.

Matthew 26:41
"Watch and Pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

You have the flesh and you have the spirit this is foundational biblical teaching, you have Heaven and you have Hell, you can commit to the flesh and be doomed or you can submit to the spirit and be blessed. This carnal, flesh, physical man relates to our sin nature, even the Bible states Jesus was tempted in every way we are yet without sin! He dealt with the same temptations we deal with through this carnal flesh, earthy, sensual, devilish.

The only thing this Flesh was used for was for the sacrifice on the cross. GOD came in the flesh revealed his name as Jesus and died upon that cross for the ultimate sacrifice known to man. Once he resurrected, he came again as he was, he still had the scars of his experience, as he ascended he goes into spiritual form, the corruptible flesh of this body will not be in his presence. It will be a spiritual body, the seed that goes into the ground is totally different when it comes up. Thats how well be when we breath our last breath! People ask "were is the body of Christ", its the church friend, Paul said were in one body, many members.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Genesis 1:26
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

I trust we all believe in One God, not two or three! I believe the Lord isn't talking to himself or another god, or speaking in the future to the body of Christ (church). I believe he is talking to his creation, we see in the garden that Eve was not at all shocked by the serpent taking to her. Its common sense that you bear the image of your parents.

Genesis 3:19
"...for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

I Corinthains 15:49
"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."

Everyone that has been born of a women was born with corruptible nature, that is the natural man. David said in sin did my mother conceive me. We were created on the same day as beasts or as one Good Elder put it, Sixth Day Man in one of his pamphlets. This physical, fleshy man has a natural habit to commit sin, no one told me how to lie or cheat, steal etc. it came natural to me as a carnal, sinner human.

Romans 7:18
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

Paul here understands that in him is a war, do I sin and remain committing sin, or do I perform what my spirit desires and the only way we can stop the sin and perform the Good is by the Holy Ghost. The only way you can submit that fleshy, Carnal, Physical Beast Nature of man is to submit to Gods spirit. When you receive the Holy Ghost you go from corruptible to incorruptible, you are now Jesus's Bride.

Matthew 26:41
"Watch and Pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

You have the flesh and you have the spirit this is foundational biblical teaching, you have Heaven and you have Hell, you can commit to the flesh and be doomed or you can submit to the spirit and be blessed. This carnal, flesh, physical man relates to our sin nature, even the Bible states Jesus was tempted in every way we are yet without sin! He dealt with the same temptations we deal with through this carnal flesh, earthy, sensual, devilish.

The only thing this Flesh was used for was for the sacrifice on the cross. GOD came in the flesh revealed his name as Jesus and died upon that cross for the ultimate sacrifice known to man. Once he resurrected, he came again as he was, he still had the scars of his experience, as he ascended he goes into spiritual form, the corruptible flesh of this body will not be in his presence. It will be a spiritual body, the seed that goes into the ground is totally different when it comes up. Thats how well be when we breath our last breath! People ask "were is the body of Christ", its the church friend, Paul said were in one body, many members.

The subject under discussion is whether or not Jesus retains His human nature, which you mentioned in the last paragraph when you said "Once he resurrected, he came again as he was, he still had the scars of his experience, as he ascended he goes into spiritual form, the corruptible flesh of this body will not be in his presence." Unfortunately, you did not provide any Scripture which states or suggests what you have declared. The various passages which you quoted do not really address the issue under discussion (we aren't discussing "sin nature" or the contrast between sinfulness and holiness, etc).

However, I would like to bring forward some Scriptures that seem to me to render your theory completely and totally impossible. Keep in mind that it is not necessary for me or anyone else to prove that Jesus' body did not dissolve or dissipate or otherwise is no longer existing. Rather, since you make the claim that Jesus' body dissipated or dissolved or otherwise no longer exists, and that Jesus is no longer human, it is incumbent upon you to provide the proof of your claim. Be that as it may, I will provide the Scriptures that teach Jesus is still a man (as well as being God), and that His body is still in existence (albeit glorified and immortal).

First of all, you said He was raised and still had His body, but then He ascended and His body became "spiritual". But hear the apostle:

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: (43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: (44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Here, the apostle clearly states that the body is RAISED as a spiritual body. Not "ascends and becomes a spiritual body". You have Jesus getting a spiritual body on His ascension, but the apostle says it happened at his resurrection. Thus, you are not in agreement with the apostle.

Furthermore, you said "Once he resurrected, he came again as he was, he still had the scars of his experience..." According to the apostle He had a spiritual body once He was resurrected, yet you acknowledge that He still had His scars, that He was "as He was". These things which you correctly apply to His resurrected body, are things belonging to the SPIRITUAL BODY that He had in his resurrection. Neither Paul nor any other apostle anywhere mentions any change in Jesus' body that occurred during the ascension which rendered Him no longer human or no longer in possession of a personal, individual body.

Again, point 1, Jesus did NOT acquire a spiritual body during the ascension, as you say, but upon His resurrection, as the apostle says.

Here is point 2:

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: (43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: (44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The same passage of Scripture which proves you are in error concerning when Jesus obtained His spiritual body, also proves you are in error as to there being two entirely different bodies. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body, yet notice: Paul repeatedly identifies IT, a single thing, which is sown in corruption (dies) and which also rises in incorruption (resurrects). That which is sown is that which is raised, except it undergoes a change from mortal to immortal, from corruptible to incorruptible, from natural to spiritual. But it is still the SAME THING, the individual's body which died, and then which is resurrected.

When Jesus resurrected from the grave, there was no body in the tomb. Why? Because He had His body, the body that was placed in the grave underwent a change from mortal to immortal, and thus the grave was empty once He left it. One body, existing first as a natural body, then upon resurrection as a spiritual body. When the resurrection occurs, the NATURAL BODY IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND. Why? Because the natural body has become the spiritual body. The grave is empty, nothing is there except the graveclothes. The natural body and the spiritual body are the same body under two different circumstances.

Which brings me to point 3:

1 Corinthians 15:47-49 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. (48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

We bear the image of the first Adam, we get old and die and return to the earth. We shall (future) bear the image of the heavenly (or spiritual, the resurrected Jesus). When Jesus died, His body was put into a grave. When He resurrected and left the grave, the grave was left empty with no body. This is what shall happen with us. When a Christian dies, their body is put into a grave. When a Christian resurrects, there will be no body left in their grave, it will be empty. Yet you assert Christians resurrect when they die, in spite of the fact their graves continue to be occupied.

The reason we know Jesus resurrected is because 1) people saw Him alive after His burial, and 2) there was no body in His grave. If what you propose is correct, then our resurrection is wholly unlike His, in contradiction to the plain statement of the apostle. Hear is another statement of his which affirms the same reality:

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The firstfruits of a harvest of blueberries is a small bunch of blueberries, not a handful of acorns. That which is the firstfruits is the same as that which it is the firstfruits of. A wheat crop has firstfruits - OF WHEAT - and the crop that comes in is the same stuff that was presented as the firstfruits. Yet if what you are saying is true, then Christ is not really the firstfruits of them which slept (died), because His resurrection and their resurrection (our resurrection) are completely different in nature and effect and result. It would be like waving a sheaf of wheat as the firstfruits of a maize harvest! The resurrection of the saints will be like the resurrection of Jesus and no bodies will remain in their graves, according to the apostle, and contrary to your theory.

Which brings up point 4:

Jesus is currently a human being. This is denied by you, yet it is the plain statement of the apostle:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Many years after the resurrection, many years after the ascension, the apostle declared there was still then currently a mediator between God and men, and further he said this then currently existing mediator is in fact a MAN. The apostle plainly declared Jesus Christ to be a man during a time frame which, according to your theory, He was not in fact a man. According to your theory, Jesus ceased to be a man at His ascension, yet after His ascension Paul not only called Him a man, but emphatically stated He was, AT THE TIME OF HIS WRITING, AFTER THE ASCENSION, a man. If Paul believed as you do, then Paul could not have said what he said. Therefore Paul did not believe as you do. And since Paul is an apostle, all who do not believe as Paul did do not in fact believe the truth but have believed an error. And therefore, Paul correctly asserts Jesus was still, in his own day, many years after the ascension, a man, which you deny.

In conclusion, your theory simply is not biblical or apostolic.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

First things first, we all can agree that we have biblical views that we will stand for, I may not believe like any of you on some things and the other way around. Im going to come from a spiritual mindset. I don't believe this physical world and the elements of it is what God desires, I believe the world we belong to once we have been adopted is the spiritual kingdom of Jesus Christ. Just keep that in mind, and ill keep in mind how some of you believe.

The spiritual mindset is the mindset which is in agreement with the Word of God. Your statement that "this physical world and the elements of it is (not) what God desires" seems to me to be based on a misunderstanding of certain things.

The "elements of the world" are to be "burned up" in judgment, thus the world that is, is to be destroyed by fire. Just as the previous world was destroyed by water. Yet, when the previous world was destroyed by water, it wasn't a total annihilation of physical reality, it was a destruction of the then existing world order, society, humans and their animals.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

The earth is destined to be inherited by God's children. Far from the idea that God doesn't care about or desire "this physical world", this "physical world" belongs to God and He has willed it to His children. A new heavens and earth wherein righteousness dwells does not mean an invisible "by and by" that leaves the current earth eternally in bondage to sin and evil and decay. Rather, Jesus came to reverse the curse - ALL of it - and that includes the decay and degradation of the physical earth:

Romans 8:16-23 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (18) For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, (21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

This jubile or release from bondage for the "whole creation" is tied to the "redemption of our body", which in turn is tied to the resurrection of Christ. Christ was raised immortal (His mortal body was changed into immortal), we wait for the same thing to happen to us and in fact the whole creation is waiting for that event, because the creation will be delivered from its bondage.

So I do not see that same duality in Scripture that your theory seems to focus on, as if God cares nothing for the physical creation. Quite the opposite in fact.

[Esaias]

To the readers:

A major error that is often made, is to confuse spiritual with "non physical", or to confuse flesh with "physical/material".

Romans 8:5-9 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. (6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

According to Paul, all those who are "in the flesh cannot please God." Does he mean all those who have physical, material bodies cannot please God? No, because he goes on to say that if you have the Spirit of God, then you are not in the flesh. Yet you still have a physical body, a material body. So being in the flesh is not at all about being physical or material. And so neither is being in the spirit about being nonphysical or nonmaterial. Rather, being in the flesh means to be carnally minded, and to be in the Spirit means to be spiritually minded (that is, to have the Spirit of God dwelling in you, God's mind or mentality is in you, directing you, etc).

What does it mean to be carnally minded? Does it mean that those who think Jesus has a resurrected but material body are just "carnally minded" because they are "stuck on physical material thinking?" NO:

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

To be carnally minded doesn't mean to recognise the proper place of physical or material realities. Rather, to be carnally minded means to have a mindset that WILL NOT OBEY GOD. Carnality isn't at all about physicality or materiality, but entirely about OBEDIENCE. It's about morality. A person who is full blown Gnostic and Manichaean, who derides and rejects everything physical and material as being unspiritual and corrupted and downright evil, is still entirely carnal and not at all spiritual, unless he submits to every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Again, carnal vs spiritual isn't about materiality or physicality. It is about morality.

[Nicodemus1968]

The subject under discussion is whether or not Jesus retains His human nature, which you mentioned in the last paragraph when you said "Once he resurrected, he came again as he was, he still had the scars of his experience, as he ascended he goes into spiritual form, the corruptible flesh of this body will not be in his presence." Unfortunately, you did not provide any Scripture which states or suggests what you have declared. The various passages which you quoted do not really address the issue under discussion (we aren't discussing "sin nature" or the contrast between sinfulness and holiness, etc).

The subject is concerning “glorified flesh”, we can’t just look at 1Corinthians 15 and point out the flesh here and there, look as to how it was created, what Jesus said about it, how it has been connected to sin. The phyiscal flesh, carnal man has roots of sin. Easias, (we can talk about this later) in the physical we look the same after the Holy Ghost expierence, do you think we look the same to Jesus after that experience?