Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Sanctuary > Deep Waters
Facebook

Notices

Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 12-29-2021, 11:53 AM
Pressing-On's Avatar
Pressing-On Pressing-On is offline
Not riding the train


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 48,481
Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

From 2020

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...7&postcount=84
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 12-29-2021, 01:19 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,573
Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Generally your posts are excellent, you can not pretend the comma, or not, is unimportant.

One reason I got involved with these studies is because I simply read the AV text, and without the comma it does not have the apposition claimed, Christ is God. And if people do not understand English, I surely will be skeptical of their Greek mastery.

Another reason was that I had seen that there was a tendency to come up with ultra-dubious claims of Christ is God verses, especially from the Granville Sharp verses, that try to correct the AV.

Trinitarians are in fact the biggest pushers of the Christ is God Romans 9:5 textual narrative. However, it is also popular in oneness circles, see my quoting of David Bernard.

Oh, I definitely agree with your "slippery slope" comment .
Very astute!
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 12-29-2021, 02:20 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 25,036
Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post

This is the awkward multiple ellipses, God doing double-duty, reading.
This is an awkward attempt to dismiss things by stringing some cool sounding words together. It's "awkward" because it doesn't fit your interpretation.

If Christ is over all, as an antithesis to "as concerning the flesh", then He is God.

Godblessed is nonstandard (bad) English. Can you find one example pre-1800 of such a usage? I'd be interested to see it.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/

Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 12-29-2021, 02:34 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,573
Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
This is an awkward attempt to dismiss things by stringing some cool sounding words together. It's "awkward" because it doesn't fit your interpretation.

If Christ is over all, as an antithesis to "as concerning the flesh", then He is God.

Godblessed is nonstandard (bad) English. Can you find one example pre-1800 of such a usage? I'd be interested to see it.
Romans 9:5?

[5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 12-29-2021, 02:41 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 25,036
Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Romans 9:5?

[5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Uh, you do realize that is the point of controversy here, right?

Surely you do. So obviously you are just having fun in the thread.

Right?
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/

Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 12-29-2021, 03:08 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,573
Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Uh, you do realize that is the point of controversy here, right?

Surely you do. So obviously you are just having fun in the thread.

Right?
Okay. Maybe another one?

[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 12-29-2021, 04:11 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,362
Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
If Christ is over all, as an antithesis to "as concerning the flesh", then He is God.
There are many high Christology verses, such as the ones in Colossians 1:16 and Ephesisans 3:9, that do not say "Christ is God".

One very possible reason is that the NT authors use God for God the Father, and they were not ultra-Sabellian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Godblessed is nonstandard (bad) English. Can you find one example pre-1800 of such a usage? I'd be interested to see it.
It is nonstandard if you leave out the space or hyphen.
It is a hapax in the Greek NT, and that carries over to the English.

Here is William Sherlock (1641-1707) in 1691 discussing

"One God blessed forever more"

A Vindication of the Doctrine of the Holy and Ever Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation of the Son of God ... The second edition (1691)
https://books.google.com/books?id=U-t-8uuCQKIC&pg=PA176

Here is one with three usages that are more adjectival than verbal.

Discourses Concerning the Ever-blessed Trinity: ... By the Author of the Divine Right of Episcopacy (1720)
Thomas Brett
https://books.google.com/books?id=1WJjAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA126
https://books.google.com/books?id=1WJjAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA154
https://books.google.com/books?id=1WJjAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA167

More
https://books.google.com/books?id=g_BhAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA286
https://books.google.com/books?id=-AEBXDT3uV4C&pg=PA68
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 01-01-2022, 09:06 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,735
Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
There are many high Christology verses, such as the ones in Colossians 1:16 and Ephesisans 3:9, that do not say "Christ is God".

One very possible reason is that the NT authors use God for God the Father, and they were not ultra-Sabellian.
Are these examples the use of God about God the Father?

What about John 20:28 John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Heb 1:8 8 But regarding the Son He says “Your throne, God, is forever and ever, And the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of His kingdom
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 01-01-2022, 09:11 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,735
Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Where is the antithesis for "as concerning the flesh"? Inserting "as concerning the flesh" introduces an antithetical pair. As concerning the flesh Christ is of Israel. But the antithesis is... what? That Christ is blessed by God? That God deserves to be praised unto the ages?

The only antithesis provided in the text is that He is over all, God. As concerning the flesh, Christ comes from Israel. But on the other hand, He is over all, God. And as God He is "blessed forever."
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 01-19-2022, 10:36 PM
votivesoul's Avatar
votivesoul votivesoul is offline
Administrator


 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 5,113
Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
Are these examples the use of God about God the Father?

What about John 20:28 John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
That is a key debate between the Oneness and Trinity positions. Both affirm that Jesus is being called God, but in what way? As the Father, or as God the Son?

Quote:
Heb 1:8 8 But regarding the Son He says “Your throne, God, is forever and ever, And the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of His kingdom
This one has a little more depth to it, in that Paul is here quoting from Psalm 45:6.

In order to correctly understand Paul's use, it's important to see how the Psalm plays out:

Psalm 45:6-7 (ESV),

Quote:

6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.
The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
7 you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;
According to Paul in Hebrews, the owner of the throne is Jesus, the Son of God, and he uses Psalm 45:6 to support that view.

But look at Psalm 45:7:

Speaking prophetically to the Son per Hebrews 1:8, the psalmist writes (to the Son) "Therefore God, your God, has anointed you [that is, has anointed Jesus the Son of God]..."

So, if Jesus is the God of Psalm 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8, and there seems to be no other conclusion, then who is the God of this God in Psalm 45:7?

Is it not the Father?

And these questions are tangentially related to Romans 9:5, because Trinitarians who affirm Christ's deity and say Romans 9:5 calls Christ "God", additionally state that it must be a reference to His deity as God the Son, since the verse says He is over all, but recognize that in other writings, Paul insists that God the Father has not been put in subjection to the Son, therefore meaning Christ is over all with the exception of the Father:

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (ESV),

Quote:
24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
__________________
For anyone devoted to His fear:

http://votivesoul.wordpress.com/

Last edited by votivesoul; 01-19-2022 at 10:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The English Majority Text Version peter83 The Library 8 04-08-2017 12:51 AM
An English Lesson Sam Fellowship Hall 2 09-14-2010 02:29 PM
what is this called in English Sister Alvear Fellowship Hall 35 08-08-2010 10:38 PM
The New English Bible. Scott Hutchinson Fellowship Hall 1 12-10-2009 06:59 PM
What do you see in this text Charlie Brown Fellowship Hall 8 05-24-2007 05:16 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Jito463
- by shag

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.