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  #381  
Old 12-01-2019, 03:48 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

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The Ellicott book is very interesting. Thank you for the link!
Archive version, includes download links: https://archive.org/details/historya...ligoog/page/n7
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  #382  
Old 12-02-2019, 12:50 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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paper on 1800s studies - by Barry Rudolph Chesney

Sabbath in English Nonconformity 1830-1860 (2012)
Barry Rudolph Chesney, Jr. -
https://digital.library.sbts.edu/bit...207D_10106.pdf

This paper has some good historical info, noting that it is largely based on transference. Separate histories would go into the 7th-day Baptists and similar movements. Note the short history beginning around p. 30 going back to the 1500s, and including John Gill, John Wesley and Andrew Fuller.

Quote:
If Jesus focused so much of his attention on the Sabbath, why would it cease as an institution, asked Nonconformists? “[The Sabbath was] the constant theme of the Saviour’s ministry—miracles illustrate it—repeated discourses exhibit the true spirit of its observance; and by a constant appeal to first principles, he endeavours, as Lord of the Sabbath, to render it again a blessing to mankind.”105 Jesus, Nonconformists argued, observed the Sabbath, and exhibited its true purpose. Through his resurrection, he changed the day of its observance and secured its significance for Christians in every generation.106 - p. 58

106 Brock added,
“To undermine the perpetual obligation of the Sabbath is an offence to Christ. To maintain, consistently to maintain its perpetual obligation is honourable to Christ, wherefore it is of perpetual obligation. We are required to keep holy a Sabbath day” (Brock, Three Sermons, 11).
Then the writer goes into the transference apologetic. Those arguments are never really examined, they are simply accepted.

He mentions many authors, including Micaiah Hill, above. The Ellicott book is not mentioned, perhaps because he does not classify as a non-conformist.

==========

Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery; 12-02-2019 at 01:09 AM.
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  #383  
Old 12-03-2019, 10:33 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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William Wallace Everts - The Sabbath: its perman..

The Sabbath: its permanence, promise and defence (1885)
William Wallace Everts (1814-1890)
http://books.google.com/books?id=irg_AAAAYAAJ

This book has some good sections.
(The transference 'doctrine' apologetic is in p. 48-59, chapter IV.

On Abraham, p. 19 and 20
https://books.google.com/books?id=irg_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA19

ECW - Chrysostom, Augustine, Ephiphaneas, Athanasius
Reformation - Ursinus
https://books.google.com/books?id=irg_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA25

"daughter of Abraham" - p. 45
https://books.google.com/books?id=irg_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA45

"As Abraham consecrated ever place of his sojourn by an altar; pious Hebrews built a synagogue wherever they built a hamlet; our Pilgrim fathers, making the Mayflower a Bethel on the first Sabbath of their arrival on the rocky New England coast, consecrated the New World to freedom and to God : so patriotism, philanthropy, and piety should unite in rearing the house of God in every town, village, rural district, and on every frontier of our extending Republic. As the shrine of hallowed associations of Sabbath, divine revelations, religious worship, and of sacred experiences of sorrow, gratitude, and hope let it attract the reverence, worship, charity, and feeling of brotherhood, and piety of all mankind, and transfigure the Sabbath rest into a foretaste and prophecy of heaven." - p. 251

==========================

There are few writers after 1900 that I have found interesting on the sabbath questions.

The Christian Sabbath - (1923) Arthur Wallington Pink (1886-1952) - referenced in two earlier threads
The Law and the Sabbath (1953) - Allen Walker
Samuele Bacchiocchi (1938-2008)
Sabbath through the centuries - James Arrabito (1950-1990) (possibly born later, some say 36 years old in 1990)

And I saw the WIP video of James Arrabito at Uchee Pines, I believe around 1988. A fellow named John Kiesz (1903-1996) has some Sabbath through the centuries material on the net as well.

==========================

Last edited by Steven Avery; 12-03-2019 at 11:35 AM.
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  #384  
Old 12-03-2019, 01:42 PM
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Re: William Wallace Everts - The Sabbath: its perm

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Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
The Sabbath: its permanence, promise and defence (1885)
William Wallace Everts (1814-1890)
http://books.google.com/books?id=irg_AAAAYAAJ

This book has some good sections.
(The transference 'doctrine' apologetic is in p. 48-59, chapter IV.

On Abraham, p. 19 and 20
https://books.google.com/books?id=irg_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA19

ECW - Chrysostom, Augustine, Ephiphaneas, Athanasius
Reformation - Ursinus
https://books.google.com/books?id=irg_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA25

"daughter of Abraham" - p. 45
https://books.google.com/books?id=irg_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA45

"As Abraham consecrated ever place of his sojourn by an altar; pious Hebrews built a synagogue wherever they built a hamlet; our Pilgrim fathers, making the Mayflower a Bethel on the first Sabbath of their arrival on the rocky New England coast, consecrated the New World to freedom and to God : so patriotism, philanthropy, and piety should unite in rearing the house of God in every town, village, rural district, and on every frontier of our extending Republic. As the shrine of hallowed associations of Sabbath, divine revelations, religious worship, and of sacred experiences of sorrow, gratitude, and hope let it attract the reverence, worship, charity, and feeling of brotherhood, and piety of all mankind, and transfigure the Sabbath rest into a foretaste and prophecy of heaven." - p. 251

==========================

There are few writers after 1900 that I have found interesting on the sabbath questions.

The Christian Sabbath - (1923) Arthur Wallington Pink (1886-1952) - referenced in two earlier threads
The Law and the Sabbath (1953) - Allen Walker
Samuele Bacchiocchi (1938-2008)
Sabbath through the centuries - James Arrabito (1950-1990) (possibly born later, some say 36 years old in 1990)

And I saw the WIP video of James Arrabito at Uchee Pines, I believe around 1988. A fellow named John Kiesz (1903-1996) has some Sabbath through the centuries material on the net as well.

==========================
Andrews has what many consider the "standard" work on the Sabbath history - https://www.sabbathtruth.com/portals...he_Sabbath.pdf

Bacchiocchi is probably one of the ablest writers on the subject .
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Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

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  #385  
Old 12-03-2019, 03:00 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
h

When was the seventh day SANCTIFIED, made HOLY, HALLOWED?

It was sanctified (set apart, made different) on the 7th Day of the Creation Week (Genesis 2:3).


Abraham knew God's laws, ways, commandments, etc, and taught them to his descendants (Genesis 26:5, Genesis 18:19).

Israel sank into idolatry in Egypt (Joshua 24:14). They forgot the true worship of God. That would include Sabbath.

Genesis is part of the Instruction given to Israel which teaches them their origins, and the ancient historical validity of the true God. It teaches among other things the origin of the Sabbath and its PURPOSE.

Israel as a people had apostasized and forgotten many of God's truths, including the truth about the Sabbath. When their descendants were brought out of Egypt they were instructed about the Sabbath (note this was BEFORE Sinai). They immediately forgot the instructions.

Do you know how many times I have seen this EXACT same scenario play out with people? They learn about the Sabbath, are like "Wow, okay, sounds good" then literally the next week they are mowing the lawn, shopping at WalMart, cooking some big meal, etc, all on the Sabbath. If reminded they are like "OOPS! Wow, I completely forgot!" Seems there is nothing new under the sun.

Well, anyway, WE had a nice Sabbath. Prayed with and for one another and others, sang psalms, learned a new psalm tune, studied and discussed God's Word (currently going through Hosea), and ate together. The Sabbath has been an awesome gift from God to me, my family, and many others. Compared to my earlier non Sabbath keeping years? No comparison and no interest in going back. I wouldn't take nuthin for my journey now, and 9-and-a-half (commandments) won't do.

Your scenario cannot be proved, whereas what I showed in Exodus indicates clearly that they did not know about it until Moses mentioned. You can say they as a nation forgot long before, but your argument was that Moses told them they always disregarded God and the context shows he spoke about what happened only verses earlier. If I was right, in what other way would Moses have said what he did?

I spoke with someone who sincerely tried keeping sabbath They could cook nothing on the seventh day starting at sunset Friday, and had all the food prepared on the sixth day, much like Israel gathering more manna than normal on the sixth day, and claimed it was an incredible task. Twice as much work one day to make up for not working the next, for sure!

Again, it is not sin. It is just not for the New Covenant. We're in a new creation, bro. Not honouring any old creation.
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  #386  
Old 12-03-2019, 03:08 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

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Quote:
Israel never heard of sabbath until Moses told them about the seventh day being sabbath when they should eat stored manna, and not gather any on that day.

Here is the record of the first time Israel heard of a sabbath.

Exodus 16:21-26.. And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted. ..(22).. And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. ..(23).. And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. ..(24).. And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. ..(25).. And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. ..(26).. Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

Before that, Genesis said GOD RESTED, and said nothing about the need for man to rest every seventh day. When God rested, He did not rest for one day alone, but rested ever since that day. Nothing in the Old Testament shows man resting one day a week until the verses above, millennia after God rested.
God did not rest because it was the Sabbath. It's the other way around.
I never said otherwise.

Quote:
The seventh day was blessed and sanctified (made holy, separated from the others) because God ceased from His original creation works. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man. This can only mean God made the seventh day to be a holy sanctified day for the benefit of mankind. This was millennia prior to the Exodus, long before any Hebrew walked the earth.
As I said, and the burden is not on me but on you to prove otherwise, God never required anyone to rest the seventh day until Moses. Nothing is stated about anyone keeping sabbath before Moses. And if Abraham kept all God's commandments, and there is no record that he was ever told to rest the seventh day, then it is incorrect to say those commandments included sabbaths.

All that we read about is that God rested and not until Moses time did He invite man to rest, too.

Quote:

God does not sanctify the day just so He Himself can enjoy the Sabbath.
God rested ever since the sixth day, not just a day. he STARTED his rest the seventh day and keeping it since then honoured old creation.

Quote:
It was made for man. This means it was instituted as a sanctified blessing for Adam and all mankind.
No, it does not mean that. It means that when it was instituted in Moses day, it was made for man.

Quote:
This is why it is described in Genesis, and why Genesis is considered part of the torah or Instruction. It shows the background and reason for the fourth commandment, among other things.
Genesis did not state it was written for that reason. I believe Genesis, first and foremost, was written to show the pattern of how God deals with man with light of the word speaking into dark chaotic hearts and then forgiving sin, separating sin, and then washing that darkness away to see the third day resurrection with Christ, etc. on toward making us in his image in spiritual maturity.

Quote:
There is no mention of the prohibition against taking God's name in vain until Sinai. Does that mean it was perfectly fine to take His name in vain before that? Is it therefore fine to take His name in vain today? Of course not.
Taking his name is not a ceremonial keeping of a time period, and not taking his name in vain was not a shadow of things to come as sabbath day was, which again is indication that you forget that we claim resting in Christ fulfills, not violates, sabbath, meaning we actually keep it when we kepe the antitype!
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  #387  
Old 12-03-2019, 04:41 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

Since God never said anything about bestiality or honouring your parents until Moses' day, were those things not forbidden/commanded until Moses' ime? And are we therefore free to practice bestiality or to dishounour our parents today?
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  #388  
Old 12-04-2019, 07:00 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: William Wallace Everts - The Sabbath: its perm

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Andrews has what many consider the "standard" work on the Sabbath history - https://www.sabbathtruth.com/portals...he_Sabbath.pdf
The first edition had to be no later than 1867, since it is referenced by a Sunday sabbath apologetic book in 1867:

The First-day Sabbath: Clearly Proved by Showing that the Old Covenant, Or Ten Commandments, Have Been Changed Or Made Complete in the Christian Dispensation : in Two Parts (1867)
Thomas M. Preble
https://books.google.com/books?id=szgQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA232
https://books.google.com/books?id=szgQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA423

Thomas M. Preble (1810-1907) had actually advocated the 7th day sabbath in 1845-1847, having slid to the Sunday position might explain the "pretended":
https://www.aplib.org/thomas-m-preble/

It would be interesting to look closer at his objections.

So we have the 1873 edition online from John Nevins Andrews (1829-1883).

History of the Sabbath (1873)
John Nevins Andrews
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZlpOo4hl6CsC

And a 1912 edition:

History of the Sabbath and the first day of the week (1912)
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZTERAAAAIAAJ

modified by:

Louis Richard Conradi (1886-1939).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_R._Conradi

And I have not checked about identifying the PDF editions.
http://www.champs-of-truth.com/reform/ADW_HOSB.PDF
http://sabbathtruth.com/portals/20/d...he_Sabbath.pdf

Last edited by Steven Avery; 12-04-2019 at 07:03 AM.
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  #389  
Old 12-04-2019, 05:29 PM
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Re: William Wallace Everts - The Sabbath: its perm

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Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
The first edition had to be no later than 1867, since it is referenced by a Sunday sabbath apologetic book in 1867:

The First-day Sabbath: Clearly Proved by Showing that the Old Covenant, Or Ten Commandments, Have Been Changed Or Made Complete in the Christian Dispensation : in Two Parts (1867)
Thomas M. Preble
https://books.google.com/books?id=szgQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA232
https://books.google.com/books?id=szgQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA423

Thomas M. Preble (1810-1907) had actually advocated the 7th day sabbath in 1845-1847, having slid to the Sunday position might explain the "pretended":
https://www.aplib.org/thomas-m-preble/

It would be interesting to look closer at his objections.

So we have the 1873 edition online from John Nevins Andrews (1829-1883).

History of the Sabbath (1873)
John Nevins Andrews
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZlpOo4hl6CsC

And a 1912 edition:

History of the Sabbath and the first day of the week (1912)
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZTERAAAAIAAJ

modified by:

Louis Richard Conradi (1886-1939).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_R._Conradi

And I have not checked about identifying the PDF editions.
http://www.champs-of-truth.com/reform/ADW_HOSB.PDF
http://sabbathtruth.com/portals/20/d...he_Sabbath.pdf
Downloadable pdf of Preble's work here: https://archive.org/details/firstday...drgoog/page/n7

I'll go through it and summarize his arguments.
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  #390  
Old 12-04-2019, 05:43 PM
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Re: William Wallace Everts - The Sabbath: its perm

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Downloadable pdf of Preble's work here: https://archive.org/details/firstday...drgoog/page/n7

I'll go through it and summarize his arguments.
Based on the first page, in which he asks the reader 7 questions, it looks like his reasoning follows this path:

God never specified the 7th day of the week, just one every seven days regardless of weekday.

Only the original seventh day of the week was sanctified, not any post creation days of the week.

Only the Sabbath was made for man, NOT the seventh day of the week.

Thus, the Sabbath is independent of any particular day of the week, and can therefore be applied to the first day of the week in honour of Christ's resurrection.

So, it looks like he is divorcing the Sabbath from the seventh day, making it simply 1 day in 7 following any consecutive 6 days of work, and then applying it to Sunday. Seems incredibly weak, to be honest (pun intended).
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