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  #71  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:34 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Logos

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
The Logos is God expressing Himself. It is a function of His Divine nature and reality. It is not a created thing. NOTHING - N O T H I N G - that was made was made by anyone OTHER than the Logos. So if the Logos "began to exist" (was made, formed, begotten, etc) it was made formed or begotten BY THE LOGOS. Hello? The Logos formed itself?
The Logos that was with God was the form he made for himself to speak to creation through. The Logos was formed, made, created whatever by the omnipresent Spirit. Not another God person or spirit.

The Word was with God....as his form to work through, and be seen through. The Word was God because some of his eternal life was in the form.

1 John 1:2

For the life was manifested and we have seen it and bear witness and show unto you that eternal life which was WITH THE FATHER, and was manifest to us.

Proverbs 8:22-23

22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Remember I gave two Hebrew versions,

The JPS Version 1917
The Complete Jewish Bible

That translated the word "possessed" as "made".

Here is the Peshitta Aramaic.

The Lord CREATED me as the FIRST of his creations, before all of his works.

Now lets look at Strongs definition of the same word.

No.7069-to erect, i.e. CREATE.

Sounds a lot like:

Rev. 3:14

And to the angel of the Church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the amen, the faithful and true witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.

Exactly the same truth.

The difference in this truth and Arianism is they dont believe the image or Logos was formed from the YHWH but was of another substance apart FROM HIM.

God and the Logos are distinct from each other in mode of being but not in person or identity.

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 09-11-2019 at 01:39 PM.
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  #72  
Old 09-11-2019, 02:30 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post

The Logos that was with God was the form he made for himself to speak to creation through. The Logos was formed, made, created whatever by the omnipresent Spirit. Not another God person or spirit.

The Word was with God....as his form to work through, and be seen through. The Word was God because some of his eternal life was in the form.

1 John 1:2

For the life was manifested and we have seen it and bear witness and show unto you that eternal life which was WITH THE FATHER, and was manifest to us.

Proverbs 8:22-23

22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Remember I gave two Hebrew versions,

The JPS Version 1917
The Complete Jewish Bible

That translated the word "possessed" as "made".

Here is the Peshitta Aramaic.

The Lord CREATED me as the FIRST of his creations, before all of his works.

Now lets look at Strongs definition of the same word.

No.7069-to erect, i.e. CREATE.

Sounds a lot like:

Rev. 3:14

And to the angel of the Church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the amen, the faithful and true witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.

Exactly the same truth.

The difference in this truth and Arianism is they dont believe the image or Logos was formed from the YHWH but was of another substance apart FROM HIM.

God and the Logos are distinct from each other in mode of being but not in person or identity.
But Prov 8 is speaking about wisdom, not logos, and it's a SHE.
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  #73  
Old 09-11-2019, 03:02 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Logos

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
But Prov 8 is speaking about wisdom, not logos, and it's a SHE.
Hmmm I wonder why believers of Oneness, Trinity, Twinity, and Arians have had the same idea this was talking about the same thing as John 1:1?

Even the new Holman Bible I bought recently. When I turned to John 1:1 and the ONLY reference that is underneath the verse is Proverbs 8:22?

But lets see if Jesus thought of HIMSELF as the wisdom of God.

Luke 11:49-50

49Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: 50That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Matt 23:34

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Jesus SEEMS to identify himself with the "wisdom" of God.

I think the Logos doctrine could stand without Proverbs 8:22-23.

However then what would we do with Proverbs 8:22-23?

It would be a VERY interesting verse but if it was interpreted as being only the attribute of wisdom we would be left thinking that before creation God had no wisdom.

After all The wisdom says:

The Lord "made" or "created" me.......as the beginning of his way.

Lets see what the LXX says.

Proverbs 8:22-25

22 The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works. 23 He established me before time was in the beginning, before he made the earth: 24 even before he made the depths; before the fountains of water came forth: 25 before the mountains were settled, and before all hills, he begets me.

Well here we find not only the wisdom being created/made but also BEGOTTEN!

Just like myself and other Oneness have taught.

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 09-11-2019 at 03:12 PM.
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  #74  
Old 09-11-2019, 03:37 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post

Hmmm I wonder why believers of Oneness, Trinity, Twinity, and Arians have had the same idea this was talking about the same thing as John 1:1?
I heard trinitarians say that but never believed that myself ever.
Quote:
Even the new Holman Bible I bought recently. When I turned to John 1:1 and the ONLY reference that is underneath the verse is Proverbs 8:22?

But lets see if Jesus thought of HIMSELF as the wisdom of God.

Luke 11:49-50

49Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: 50That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Matt 23:34

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Jesus SEEMS to identify himself with the "wisdom" of God.

I think the Logos doctrine could stand without Proverbs 8:22-23.

However then what would we do with Proverbs 8:22-23?

It would be a VERY interesting verse but if it was interpreted as being only the attribute of wisdom we would be left thinking that before creation God had no wisdom.

After all The wisdom says:

The Lord "made" or "created" me.......as the beginning of his way.

Lets see what the LXX says.

Proverbs 8:22-25

22 The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works. 23 He established me before time was in the beginning, before he made the earth: 24 even before he made the depths; before the fountains of water came forth: 25 before the mountains were settled, and before all hills, he begets me.

Well here we find not only the wisdom being created/made but also BEGOTTEN!

Just like myself and other Oneness have taught.
A she . Jesus certainly is wisdom, but not a she and not an opposite to the Harlot of proverbs.
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Last edited by mfblume; 09-11-2019 at 03:43 PM.
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  #75  
Old 09-11-2019, 03:48 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Logos

Quote:
I heard trinitarians say that but never believed that myself ever.
Well yea you said you dont accept this teaching. There are Oneness that do.

How about Frank Ewart? You hear of him? He was the leader of the early 2oth century Oneness movement.

Here I quote Elder Drysdale:

FRANK J. EWART

Bro. Ewart was the first to see the light on Water Baptism in Jesus' Name as the fulfillment of Matthew 28:19. Back in 1913 he began baptizing in Jesus' name those first Oneness believers. He was also an articulate author. Concerning the Pre-existent Christ, he writes:

Quote:
"There is not a single scripture that asserts Jesus existed eternally as a Son. He is called 'the Word,' 'God's Wisdom,' 'Back in the Beginning,' but never God's Son. See John 1:1, Prov. 8:22-31... He asserts that His existence was inseparable from the One True God. He asserted that back in the beginning he was in 'the bosom of the Father.' It is written in Zechariah that he was 'God's Fellow.' Micah said the babe of Bethlehem was 'from everlasting.' Isaiah says He was 'the Everlasting Father'..." (Frank Ewart, Revelation of Jesus Christ, p. 37).
Bro. Ewart recognized the "Word" or "God's Fellow" to be the embodiment of the invisible Father back in "the beginning" and who would later become the "Babe of Bethlehem."

So why does Frank Ewart in this quote place John 1:1 and Proverbs 8:22 SIDE BY SIDE?

Because HE the leader of the Oneness movement saw the same connection of the two that many saw before him and many have after?

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 09-11-2019 at 04:23 PM.
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  #76  
Old 09-11-2019, 03:56 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post

Well yea you said you dont accept this teaching. There are Oneness that do.
That's of no consequence. When you study it out, it's a woman because it's contrasted with the Harlot of proverbs. Hardly the logos.
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  #77  
Old 09-11-2019, 10:04 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Logos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
The Logos that was with God was the form he made for himself to speak to creation through. The Logos was formed, made, created whatever by the omnipresent Spirit. Not another God person or spirit.

The Word was with God....as his form to work through, and be seen through. The Word was God because some of his eternal life was in the form.

1 John 1:2

For the life was manifested and we have seen it and bear witness and show unto you that eternal life which was WITH THE FATHER, and was manifest to us.

Proverbs 8:22-23

22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Remember I gave two Hebrew versions,

The JPS Version 1917
The Complete Jewish Bible

That translated the word "possessed" as "made".

Here is the Peshitta Aramaic.

The Lord CREATED me as the FIRST of his creations, before all of his works.

Now lets look at Strongs definition of the same word.

No.7069-to erect, i.e. CREATE.

Sounds a lot like:

Rev. 3:14

And to the angel of the Church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the amen, the faithful and true witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.

Exactly the same truth.

The difference in this truth and Arianism is they dont believe the image or Logos was formed from the YHWH but was of another substance apart FROM HIM.

God and the Logos are distinct from each other in mode of being but not in person or identity.
I don't think you understand Arius' octrine. So let's stick to the Bible.

Wisdom was with God in the beginning. Stop and think what that means. God had wisdom from the beginning. (Kind of a "duh!" type thing, actually...) To suggest that wisdom was "made, created, formed, etc means there was a time when wisdom did not exist. So how did God make wisdom when He didn't have any? How did He have any wisdom to create wisdom? If He had wisdom to create wisdom, then He already had it! And thus wisdom is not CREATED, MADE, or whatever term you prefer. God ALWAYS had wisdom. Thus, God possessed wisdom from the beginning, before anything was made.

Proverbs is not a doctrinal presentation of the Logos, or of the Angel of Jehovah. It is presenting wisdom's benefits. It uses personification in a poetic way. In fact wisdom is personified as a WOMAN in Proverbs. Is the Logos a girl? Hardly.

So what is the tie in to Christ? Paul calls Christ "the wisdom of God." The man Jesus is the enfleshment (incarnation) of God's wisdom. God's wisdom was manifested and demonstrated to us (expressed) as Jesus Christ and His life, ministry, teaching, works, suffering, death, resurrection, and ascension. THAT is the wisdom of God made known to us. Because it is God's wisdom, it is eternal. God did not "acquire" wisdom nor was wisdom "created" or "discovered" by Him. God's essential nature is that of wisdom, He is inherently wise, He possesses wisdom as an essential inseperable attribute of His Divine nature and existence.

And this wisdom being expressed is the WORD. Remember, the word or logos is BOTH the Idea being expressed AND the actual expression of the Idea. In this case the Idea is Divine Wisdom, which is nothing less than the MIND AND CHARACTER OF GOD, or in other words, His PERSON. The LOGOS which was in the beginning, which God possessed, and which was God Himself. And which became human as the Son of God.

You are departing from Biblical Oneness truth in claiming the Logos is created, but you don't even see it. Perhaps to YOU Jesus is a created being, the first thing God made, and then God delegated the rest of Creation to this second created Logos-being. That is EXACTLY what Jehovah's Witnesses believe, binitarians (Twoness), and Unitarians , and ARIANS and early pre-Nicaean trinitarians all believe(d) this. And sadly it seems that's where you are going.

I guess I should have paid more attention in the past to your version of Logos teaching so as to not be so surprised at what seems a recent turn of events. You are correct in that many Oneness don't have a solid grasp of the Logos, but I suspect you don't either.
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  #78  
Old 09-11-2019, 10:06 PM
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Re: Logos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Elder Drysdale

In his final prayer Christ says:

"For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee..." (John 17:8).

"Came out" as the "Firstbegotten," the "Image of the invisible God," is what he meant! He "came out" from Mary as the "form of man" in 4 B.C. But He came "out from God" as the "form of God" back "before all worlds." Mary produced the Human body in which the divine Spirit dwelt, but in the dateless past God produced the celestial body (Ex. 24:10) in which he dwelt , before He was "made flesh" (John 1:14).
And this is EXACTLY where I have always disagreed with Drysdale's Apollinarian Christology.
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  #79  
Old 09-11-2019, 10:26 PM
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Re: Logos

Quote:
You are departing from Biblical Oneness truth in claiming the Logos is created, but you don't even see it. Perhaps to YOU Jesus is a created being, the first thing God made, and then God delegated the rest of Creation to this second created Logos-being.
Did Frank Ewart the Father of the modern Oneness movement depart from Biblical Oneness?

He might say you never understood it.

You are trying to say that we teach the Logos as a second, independent person of God as Trins or Arians. If you are indeed reading anything of what I write you could not say such.

The Logos was the FORM of God that was with God from the beginning. Not "another" God person.

Quote:
That is EXACTLY what Jehovah's Witnesses believe, binitarians (Twoness), and Unitarians , and ARIANS and early pre-Nicaean trinitarians all believe(d) this. And sadly it seems that's where you are going.
Ok you tell me EXACTLY which of ANY of these groups believe what I and other Oneness believe. That God is only one person or being and that the Logos that was WITH HIM......was HIMSELF in visible form.

Show us this group so we may believe you and understand that we Oneness are the same as any of the groups you have mentioned.

I'll be waiting.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:40 PM
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Re: Logos

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
The Hebrew word Shekinah is also never found in the Hebrew in the Old Testament anywhere. It is a female deity and is not biblical. Apistolics should never use the term shekinah. It's not just God's presence, like people think. It's a female presence and cannot refer to God.
Amen!
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