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  #31  
Old 10-11-2019, 02:09 PM
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diakonos diakonos is offline
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Re: Generational Curses?


Interesting.
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  #32  
Old 10-11-2019, 02:12 PM
Monterrey Monterrey is offline
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Re: Generational Curses?

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Originally Posted by diakonos View Post


Umm... how often do you deal with this stuff?
I know I am going to get some flack about this but lets expound on the open door idea.

1)What is the difference between oppression and possession?

My answer to this is as follows.

1a- I see the difference as it is a point of ownership. Satan can possess a sinner but a saint of God has been bought by the blood. A sinner can be possessed but a saint can be oppressed.
1b- We see Israel, as our example, coming out of Egypt one time. They were no longer possessed by Egypt. But after that they were oppressed several different times needing deliverance.

2) Where does a spirit gain control of a sinner?

2a- A sinner can have that begin through environment, through the actions of their parent, through their own sins.

3) If a saint of God is struggling with oppression where did that come from?

3a- The Saint of God has to let that spirit back in to control them through an action or sin.

What thinks Unregistered?
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  #33  
Old 10-11-2019, 02:16 PM
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diakonos diakonos is offline
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Re: Generational Curses?


If you walk in the flesh you will do what the flesh desires. *shrugs*
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  #34  
Old 10-11-2019, 02:21 PM
Monterrey Monterrey is offline
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Re: Generational Curses?

So many times working with sinners who are repenting we just pray deliverance for them and God just kinda makes a clean slate for them through the process.

It does seem that when we deal with a sinner that they are so reliant on the ministry in this. It is up to the church to help them.

But when we deal with saints that are oppressed then more of the burden lies with that person. They need to identify the doorway, allow God to close the door, renounce that sin that opened it in the beginning and walk in victory.

That's why often times it is easier to deal with a sinner than a saint on this.

I remember one time that there were 3 young men that came to service from another city. It was only the second time they were in any kind of apostolic service. 2 were 14 1 was 15. two brothers and a cousin.

As we had the altar call they begin to manifest spiritual possession. Shaking, eyes rolled back in the head, falling to the floor, spitting and vomiting. We begin to pray deliverance for them and God worked deliverance for them.

Afterwards I spoke with them and just asked them... "Where did this come into you?" Now remember, these were sinner boys with no church background at all. They did not reply ... "What are you talking about..." They knew what I was talking about. They all said... "Pornography and violent video games! Now that was coming from them as to what the open door was. Not from me.
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Last edited by Monterrey; 10-11-2019 at 02:23 PM.
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  #35  
Old 10-11-2019, 02:22 PM
Monterrey Monterrey is offline
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Re: Generational Curses?

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Originally Posted by diakonos View Post

If you walk in the flesh you will do what the flesh desires. *shrugs*
Absolutely. I believe that every work of the flesh is a type of open door or opportunity for spiritual oppression. Can't see it any other way.
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  #36  
Old 10-11-2019, 02:24 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Generational Curses?

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Um, Brother not going to fight. But if there is not an open door, or whatever you want to call it, then you are saying that that devil, spirit, oppressive fallen angel, was resident in them at birth? Not really tracking with what you are saying here. Expound.

I just gave a scripture, Rev 3, that spoke about open doors and closed doors. Then you throw out... "Where is this doctrine found in the Bible?"

Where does that demonic oppression stem from if I may ask? If you don't call it an open door then what do you call it? Please expound your thinking so we can have a dialogue on this.

As far as casting them out after prayer and fasting... I do believe that. At no point have I countered that. Yet I will tell you from experience that you can cast out or off a spirit on Sunday and by the following Wednesday they are back, and with more company. Why is this? Well, if that person has not discovered where that oppression is coming from, ie open doors, then you are spitting in the wind. Those people will drain you dry.

We see this example in the scripture.

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

But if you can show the person where the problem is stemming from then they can 1) shut the door, repent of whatever they are doing that allows that spirit to work in their lives, 2) develop a prayer life so that they can live victorious that they now can walk as God wants them to.

This is still Scripture.
I'm not trying to fight, I'm just asking. I don't recall any Scripture where Jesus, the apostles, or any prophets provided any "find the door" type counselling to demonised people as part of getting rid of the demon. You ask where does the demonic oppression come from? Why do you ask? Doesn't the Bible delve into that subject?

Well, actually, it seems it doesn't. I don't know any passages where anybody provided teaching on "where demonic oppression comes from". Nobody was looking into anybody's childhood traumas as part of exorcising demons. Maybe in the zohar, but not in the Bible.

That convinces me of the fact that such "background information" is wholly irrelevant to the subject. God didn't see fit to give us doctrine in that area. Why not? Because it's irrelevant. He DID however give us power to cast the demons out and send them on their way.

I would say the example in Matt 12 you cited is more of a warning against sin. Once cleansed from sin, going back to sin results in a worse fate, like a dog back to its vomit. I mean, are there examples of demoniacs being healed, then winding up possessed again? In the Bible, I mean? Jesus was telling the Pharisees they were going to wind up 7 times worse than they then currently were. Which is what happened historically.

If a person is delivered on Sunday, and possessed again next Wednesday, maybe they were never delivered in the first place? Or else, the problem isn't a demon, but something else. Sin can't be "cast out" of someone, it has to be repented of.
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  #37  
Old 10-11-2019, 02:31 PM
Apostolic1ness Apostolic1ness is offline
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Re: Generational Curses?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I'm not trying to fight, I'm just asking. I don't recall any Scripture where Jesus, the apostles, or any prophets provided any "find the door" type counselling to demonised people as part of getting rid of the demon. You ask where does the demonic oppression come from? Why do you ask? Doesn't the Bible delve into that subject?

Well, actually, it seems it doesn't. I don't know any passages where anybody provided teaching on "where demonic oppression comes from". Nobody was looking into anybody's childhood traumas as part of exorcising demons. Maybe in the zohar, but not in the Bible.

That convinces me of the fact that such "background information" is wholly irrelevant to the subject. God didn't see fit to give us doctrine in that area. Why not? Because it's irrelevant. He DID however give us power to cast the demons out and send them on their way.

I would say the example in Matt 12 you cited is more of a warning against sin. Once cleansed from sin, going back to sin results in a worse fate, like a dog back to its vomit. I mean, are there examples of demoniacs being healed, then winding up possessed again? In the Bible, I mean? Jesus was telling the Pharisees they were going to wind up 7 times worse than they then currently were. Which is what happened historically.

If a person is delivered on Sunday, and possessed again next Wednesday, maybe they were never delivered in the first place? Or else, the problem isn't a demon, but something else. Sin can't be "cast out" of someone, it has to be repented of.
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  #38  
Old 10-11-2019, 02:32 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Generational Curses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monterrey View Post
I know I am going to get some flack about this but lets expound on the open door idea.

1)What is the difference between oppression and possession?

My answer to this is as follows.

1a- I see the difference as it is a point of ownership. Satan can possess a sinner but a saint of God has been bought by the blood. A sinner can be possessed but a saint can be oppressed.
1b- We see Israel, as our example, coming out of Egypt one time. They were no longer possessed by Egypt. But after that they were oppressed several different times needing deliverance.

2) Where does a spirit gain control of a sinner?

2a- A sinner can have that begin through environment, through the actions of their parent, through their own sins.

3) If a saint of God is struggling with oppression where did that come from?

3a- The Saint of God has to let that spirit back in to control them through an action or sin.

What thinks Unregistered?
Where is the Scripture that teaches nos. 2-3a? Where are the Scriptures that teach 1a? That's what I'm getting at.

As for 1b, Israel was sold into foreign oppression by God as punishment for their sins. That is different than demonisation. But if we allow it to be an instructive parallel, then the conclusion is "people suffering from demons are being punished by God for their sins."

Yet, I do not find that taught anywhere in Scripture. In fact, just the opposite. Demonisation is treated practically identically with physical healing. It is a bondage inflicted by the enemy and is subject to being removed by (spiritual) force. It is not in the same category as a temporal punishment for sin. Although, temporal punishment for sin may indeed include sickness, but I don't see where in those cases it is a subject of healing. That would be like God fighting against Himself.
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  #39  
Old 10-11-2019, 02:34 PM
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Re: Generational Curses?

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Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
Amen!
I mean, makes sense to me?

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  #40  
Old 10-11-2019, 02:46 PM
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Re: Generational Curses?

I will say this though. Those who seek after familiar spirits often wind up in a whole big mess.
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