Testimony To The Truth

[RonMurray]

Originally Posted by shazeep

the truth of the Word is that diverse tongues is a gift, not a standard. Why create a division, where none was needed?

Declaring the truth is not division, but correction.

Isaiah 28;11 & 12 tells us that this stammering of lips and speaking with another tongue is the rest and the refreshing. So it is a biblical fact that every one who receives the Holy Spirit will speak with tongues.

The gift of tongues that's mentioned in 1 Corinthians is a message, and it's only given to some beloevers, not every believer. Different spiritual gifts are given to different believers. But there are tongues that every believer experiences who receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is not the gift of tongues, and it is not a message.

In 1 Corinthians 14;15, Paul says, "What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."

Paul says he will "pray" and "sing". He's not talking about a message here, but worshiping God. And he says that he will pray and sing with the spirit and with the understanding. He was comparing the diffetence between worshiping God with the spirit, with tongues, with a laguage he doesn't understand in contrast to worshiping God with the understanding, with a laguage he knows and understands.

The sign of tongues that every believer experiences who receieves the Holy Spirit is the Spirit making intercession in us in our prayer and worship unto God.

[shazeep]

well, there are other interpretations there, and your statements seem intent upon excluding those who believe God has given them another interpretation. I'm sure you are aware of what Isaiah most likely meant by "stammering tongue," that being Philistines trying to speak Hebrew. And Paul was surely describing xenoglossy, not glossololia. But regardless of ones beliefs in these, why make it a point of division? Which this "God told me" stuff can only do?

God did not tell you these things apropos of nothing, did He? You first heard this from some guys from Rhema, right? And then, with this preconceived notion, you found Scripture that could be used to validate it. Or please correct me if i am wrong there.

[RonMurray]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, there are other interpretations there, and your statements seem intent upon excluding those who believe God has given them another interpretation. I'm sure you are aware of what Isaiah most likely meant by "stammering tongue," that being Philistines trying to speak Hebrew. And Paul was surely describing xenoglossy, not glossololia. But regardless of ones beliefs in these, why make it a point of division? Which this "God told me" stuff can only do?

God did not tell you these things apropos of nothing, did He? You first heard this from some guys from Rhema, right? And then, with this preconceived notion, you found Scripture that could be used to validate it. Or please correct me if i am wrong there.

All the events in the Old Testament happened in a way that they are examples of the spiritual things of God. Isaiah 28;11 and 12 was a prophecy at that time of the Chaldeans who would come and invade them. The apostle Paul refers to this scripture in 1 Corinthians 14;21 and applies a spiritual meaning to it. The event that Isaiah was speaking of in the Old Testament has a spiritual meaning for us in the New Testament.

In Matthew 11;28, Jesus says, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." What Jesus was saying here is the true meaning and fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah 28;11 and 12.

So according to the word of God, any one who comes to Jesus and receives the rest that He promised to give them, will receive it by receiving the Holy Spirit and will speak with other tongues, showing that they have been filled with the Holy Spirit and have received the rest.

So you have spoken against me falsely. Instead of replying presumptuously, and making up things and lying about me, you should have considered my testimony and went to God to seek Him and ask Him to let you know if it's true, like I did.

[RonMurray]

Here's a message on God's plan of salvation.
https://disqus.com/home/channel/thet..._of_salavation

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by RonMurray

In Matthew 11;28, Jesus says, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." What Jesus was saying here is the true meaning and fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah 28;11 and 12.

So according to the word of God, any one who comes to Jesus and receives the rest that He promised to give them, will receive it by receiving the Holy Spirit and will speak with other tongues, showing that they have been filled with the Holy Spirit and have received the rest.

ok well i'm not sure how you get to glossololia as a requirement for salvation with these, as they don't logically follow each other, but i am not trying to discredit the belief. Rather it is the intimation that since God told you this it cannot be disputed, which is where revelation is in the matter.

Many believers do not interpret those passages the same way, and they of course feel led by God into their belief. What of them? Is their any other fruit of your version of tongues than to create a "them," iow? If so, what? Let us judge by the fruit.

Originally Posted by RonMurray

So you have spoken against me falsely. Instead of replying presumptuously, and making up things and lying about me, you should have considered my testimony and went to God to seek Him and ask Him to let you know if it's true, like I did.

ok, my strongest language was prolly "demonstrably false," which i did not mean to be any final word or anything, just pointing out that another pov on the matter can also be proven from Scripture, and God does not force anyone into a belief against their will. I will maintain (for now) that you did not get this revelation unaided, but were persuaded and possibly even coerced into it--but regardless, it is what you believe now; you have exercised your free will to come to a conclusion, in some manner.

I happen to disagree with you on the matter; am i lost now? Is every believer who differs on the matter condemned, in your eyes? These are rhetorical questions--as of course we already know the answer, don't we?--that might illuminate the difference in harvesting/witnessing fruit from a belief v insisting that others hold to it, presumably upon pain of soul death.

A false belief is one that separates a believer from other believers, and disqualifies them in some way so as to elevate one believer over another, serving ego and destroying humility, imo. (I'll just leave the "them" ambiguous there, as it works both ways) I have a few myself, that you might disagree with. That i can prove with Scripture. Am i free to declare that God told them to me, so you better believe it too, and come join my new sect? I don't mean to say that this universally applies--but almost.

There is a subtle trap inherent in the operation, that we naturally gravitate toward because it appeals to our ego. So i wonder if this is not an aspect of salvation, and forgive me if this came across as an attack, as that is not meant.

[RonMurray]

If you have a hard time seeing it, then you should go to God and ask Him to show you and let you know if it's true that every one who receives the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues. That way you will know for yourself from God. It's not just revelation. It's also using scripture together with other scripture. It's not just Isaiah 28:11 & 12, it's also what Jesus says in Matthew 11:28. When we compare these scriptures, it tells us that the rest that Jesus was talking about is the rest and refreshing in Isaiah 28:11 & 12. Also, when you consider that what Jesus says in Matthew 11:28 applies to every one, even today in our time, then that means that every one who comes to Jesus and receives the rest, will receive it by being filled with the Holy Spirit, and they will speak with other tongues. This is a biblical fact.

A better way I explained it in my message on salvation is like this,

"In Matthew 11;28, Jesus says, "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest". And in Isaiah 28;11&12, it says, "For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people, To whom He said, This is the rest with which You may cause the weary to rest, And, This is the refreshing”. So this stammering lips and speaking with other tongues, this is the rest, this is you being filled with the Holy Spirit and receiving the rest that Jesus promised to give to them that come to Him. So, yes, speaking with other tongues still exists, and is the evidence or sign of you receiving the Holy Spirit, of you receiving Jesus."

You keep assuming things and making up things about me, too, that you don't even know. My motive isn't to make and force people to believe it, but to clear up misconceptions about it and let people know the truth, so they'll know that every one who receives the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues.

And no, we are not saved by tongues itself. We are saved by believing and obeying the gospel by turning to God in repentance, being baptized by immersion in water in the name of Jesus Christ, and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is how we are saved and how we are born again. Speaking in tongues is just the result of being filled with the Holy Spirit, the sign.

In the Old Testament, God accepted the sacrifices by fire, which was a physical sign of the sacrifice being accepted by God. John the Baptist said that He, speaking of Jesus, will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire, meaning a spiritual fire by the Holy Spirit. This is a reference to the Old Testament sacrifices being accepted by fire. We are brought to God as a living sacrifice by Jesus Christ, who is our High Priest. And God doesn't use physical fire as a sign of us being accepted, like the Old Testament sacrifices, He uses tongues. Tongues is the New Testament sign of us being accepted as a sacrifice to God by Jesus Christ, it's a spiritual fire.

So you see, there is more to tongues than you realize.

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[shazeep]

i don't doubt that--but i do suspect that glosssololia is not what is meant.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not...

can hardly be describing glossololia now, can it?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by RonMurray

You keep assuming things...

please see that i am just speaking generally there. While my rephrasing may not be meant, it is what is implied. When you are daily astonishing multitudes of lost people with your tongues, like the Apostles did, we might visit this again, but to imply that no one gets the Holy Spirit absent glossololia is just exclusionary imo, and God told me this personally--i even heard A Voice, so if you don't believe me you are obviously lost i mean c'mon bro

[RonMurray]

Originally Posted by shazeep

please see that i am just speaking generally there. While my rephrasing may not be meant, it is what is implied. When you are daily astonishing multitudes of lost people with your tongues, like the Apostles did, we might visit this again, but to imply that no one gets the Holy Spirit absent glossololia is just exclusionary imo, and God told me this personally--i even heard A Voice, so if you don't believe me you are obviously lost i mean c'mon bro

I've never said I heard a voice, and never said if you don't believe me you are obviously lost. You're making up things again. I said I went to God about it and He showed me the scriptures and opened my understanding of them to confirm to me that it's true. And that should be an example for others who don't believe it, by seeking God themselves also and finding ouf from Him. That's why I asked you and encouraged you to do that. It's not hard.

You probably would have received an answer from God by now. And also, I didn't mention this before because that's besides the point, but it's not just me, ask any Apostolic and they will tell you that everybody who receives the Holy Spirit will speak with tongues. That's how I was introduced to that in the first place. I said in my testimony that I learned about Jesus being God, and about baptism in the name of Jesus, and about speaking in tongues as the sign or evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit from the Apostolic faith, and how I went to God to ask Him if these things were true, and God confirmed each one in His word by His Spirit. And He also confirmed them to me by the manifestation of His Spirit within the Apostolic ministry and in my own life also.

After God had shown me and taught me these things, confirming and assuring me that these are the teachings of God, He started using me to share the gospel with others according to these teachings in a powerful way. After sharing the gospel with some of them and sharing these teachings with them, I would lay hands on them and pray, and God's Spirit would move upon them in a way that they could physically feel it, God bearing witness to them that He is real and that what I said to them was true. So God beared witness to other people too that that these teachings are true, and it's the teachings of God. I was talking to a cousin of mine before and prayed and asked God to show me something about her to let her know that what I was telling her was true. And God showed me something about her and let her know that what I was telling her is true.

So God confirmed these teachings to me by His word and by supernatural manifestations of His Spirit within the Apostolic ministry, and in my own life personally, and to other people through me who I shared these teachings with.
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[shazeep]

to that i say Amen!