Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-26-2016, 05:48 PM
Evang.Benincasa's Avatar
Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood too


 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,122
Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parallels

Easias had some very good thoughts concerning book of Enoch, Jude, 1 Peter, and 2 Peter. I would like to investigate his thoughts on this subject and hope others would join in with their thoughts. It all started in a thread entitled "You Must Listen To this" concerning Dave Wilkerson telling everyone how tired he is that the rest of Christendom isn't up to snuff. Anyway, Mike the Disciple brought up hell as being the grave, I then asked him what he thought about hell in 2 Peter 2:4. Mike then threw it back on me saying he was limited in its meaning concerning hell, so I explained my thoughts on the word τάρταρον found in 2 Peter 2:4. Easias then asked if I believe that Peter said it because he was refuting Ancient Jewish literature. What Easias presented (I believe) was very interesting.


Here is my first post which was addressed to Mike the Disciple.

Hades was the place of rest, the final abode of shadows, while Tartarus was the place where the punishment fit the crime. The prison of the Titans, and the wicked elite. It is explained in Homeric literature as being as far from hades as the heaven is from earth. This is how the ancient Greeks, Persians, Latins, and Hellenized Judeans would of understood 2 Peter 2:4, due to the word also being found in the book of Job 41:24 in the LXX. τὸν δὲ τάρταρον τῆς ἀβύσσου ὥσπερ αἰχμάλωτον· ἐλογίσατο ἄβυσσον εἰς περίπατον, the lowest part of the deep as a captive: he reckons the deep as his range. The very deep, liar of the monster Leviathan. Tartarus was understood as the place of everlasting torment where no sleep or rest was found for the ones who offended god, in this case it was the Greek/Roman god Ζεύς. The evil King Σίσυφος had to push a rock up a hill and then watch it roll back down. This was done to him because he boasted about being more clever than Ζεύς, so therefore this torment was devised. Ἰξίων was chained to a wheel that eternally turned, without hesitation. Τάνταλος stole the food of the gods, and mutilated his own son to feed to the gods at a banquet to test their omniscience. Τάνταλος was to be punished by standing neck-deep in a pool of water, always thirsty but never able to catch a drink. A bowl filled with fruit hung above his head, but whenever he tried to reach the fruit the wind would blow the swinging bowl away out of his reach. Θησέας even though he was a hero, was also detained in Tartarus. When he was in his 20s Θησέας lost reverence for the gods and together with his best friend, Πειρίθους, decided they would marry daughters of Ζεύς: Πειρίθους desired Ελένη and Θησέας desired Περσεφόνη. First they kidnapped Ελένη, who was only ten (her brothers, Κάστορας and Πολυδεύκης, rescued her). Then they attempted to kidnap Περσεφόνη from the Underworld. Hades greeted his guests and invited them to sit in the stone chair of Λήθη, the chair of Forgetfulness. Ηρακλής later succeeded in rescuing Θησέας but not Πειρίθους. When Peter uses Tartarus in 2 Peter 2:4 it could only be understood as a place of one, eternal torment, two the place of no rest, three the abode, of wicked supernatural beings, monsters, giants, and wicked, and impious men. Definitely not, the grave.

Also the Hellenized Ethiopian Jews used the word Tartarus in their Book of Enoch. An arch angel named Uriel is supposed to be the guardian of the abyss, called Tartarus.
__________________
“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-26-2016, 07:32 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

Is it possible Peter was quoting Jewish literature in order to make a point without endorsing the historicity of the account?
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-26-2016, 07:33 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
That was exactly what I onced believed, but what I found it's really not up to translation, but interpretation. When the ancients were writing down their material they offered us what they understood would make sense to the known world during THEIR time. In the LXX, Leviathan comes from the deep Tartarus as a captive. Therefore 300 years before the apostle penned his words 2 Peter 2:4 he would of understood that this was the place of imprisonment of giants, monsters, and nasty leadership, and impious men. Jude 6 also records the same event. This is found in Hellenistic Judean literature from the Greek text of 1 Enoch 20:2 where Uriel (angel) is the jailer of 200 angels which sinned. Not that I'm a fan of the book of Enoch, but that is the only portion
(not quite sure how to copy entire posts, I can't 'edit' the post in order to copy the vbcode to make the copies appear original...)
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-26-2016, 07:34 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

...let me ask you about the following quotations from Peter:

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

These two statements are very interesting. First of all, there is no scripture whatsoever (within the Canon) speaking about 'angels that sinned' and which were 'Tartarized' (literal meaning of the word translated 'cast (them) down into hell'), reserved to the judgment day. However, if I am not mistaken, this comes straight out of one of the Enoch books. It was well known among Jews (and Gentile 'God-fearers' as well) and Christians in the first century. It is likely to have been known to Jesus and his generation. It was extremely popular. So much so that some Christians considered it to be canonical scripture. Among the Jews it was very popular, but especially among the various Essene sects who appear to have been deeply involved in mysticism and 'gnosis'.

The fact Peter quotes from Enoch raises the question: Is Enoch canonical, is it indeed scripture? Did Peter think it was scripture? Or, was Peter quoting a well-known piece of Jewish literature in order to make a point? Much like a preacher nowadays who referred to a scene from a popular novel such as 'Lord of the Rings', perhaps, or 'Narnia' or maybe even the TV show 'Cheers' (me genoito!). The reference was meant to be an illustration, from popularly known literature of the day, that illustrated the point he was trying to make.

In fact, the second quote I listed above, about angels not bringing railing accusation against the revilers, seems to indicate as much. If I am not mistaken, according to the book of Enoch, it was indeed an angel who accused the enemies to God. So it seems Peter is specifically contradicting a point made in Enoch. This could not have been understood any other way by the original audience, as far as I can see. They would have been familiar with the book of Enoch, they would have been familiar with the citation from Enoch made by Peter (about the angels that sinned being cast into Tartarus*), They could not have failed to notice the glaring discrepancy between the account in Enoch, and Peter's words when he says 'but angels do not bring railing accusation against them before the Lord'.

The only solution to this, to my mind, is that Peter did not consider Enoch to be inspired, or scripture, or to have preserved an accurate trustworthy account of ancient history. Bu rather, that Enoch was uninspired, and in fact in error in many ways. Although the story in Enoch was useful as an illustration, it nevertheless gets corrected by the apostle.

Am I making any sense here?

*Note: The word translated 'cast (them) down into hell' in the Greek is ταρταρωσας (Tartarosas), from Tartaroo. This is a verb, is it not? Technically speaking, Peter did say the angels that sinned were 'placed in Tartarus', but rather they were 'tartarised'.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-26-2016, 07:36 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post

Still the ancient reader would of taken ταρταρωσας to be literlly in the direction of τάρταρον, being the holding place of monsters, giants, and the impious dead. They weren't being cast down to hades, because the ancients knew they were totally to different locations. As far as the book of Enoch, we don't have the copy which Peter, or Jude quote from. The Ethiopian copy is the only complete document we have which has some major issues.

Oldest copy of Enoch is the book of Giants found in the Qumran cave, and may of well been one which was of Essene origin. To go along with their teachings of the Qumran colony. I can't prove that, but that is just my opinion. Another thought I have is that the book of Giants is highly symbolic like the other Essene teachings found in the scrolls. Because the whole issue that the giants bred with animals, fish, birds, reptiles and insects are too mythological.
.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-26-2016, 07:36 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

... let me say that I believe Peter and Jude are in fact warning people to avoid the book of Enoch, specifically and directly.

As I pointed out, Peter not only quotes Enoch, but specifically contradicts Enoch a few verses later. Jude does the same thing, in fact.

Walk with me through the context for a moment:

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Pe 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

The apostolic doctrine and their faith is not based on myths, but on eyewitness testimony.

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Superior even to eyewitness testimony of mystical visions of heavenly things, however, is the Word of God (the Scripture).

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

So, there is a contrast being established between myths, on the one hand, and the doctrine of the gospel on the other hand. One is 'cunningly devised' and the other is based not only on recent eyewitness testimony of people still current and alive, but also (more importantly) on the Scripture itself. So, clearly, is Scripture is 'a more sure word' than apostolic testimony, it is certainly superior to 'cunningly devised fables/myths'. That is the immediate context of the discussion that follows.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Peter warns about false teachers coming into the church, who will bring in damnable heresies, that lead to their own destruction. Many will follow these false teachers and their teachings. And 'the way of truth' will be maligned because of them. In other words, the false teachers and their 'many' followers will bring reproach on the way of truth because the false teachers misrepresent the truth. Also, these false teachers will make money off their followers. Yet, the false teachers are doomed, and their doom is certain.

So Peter, after contrasting the cunningly devised fables/myths with the more sure Word of the Scripture, now speaks about false teachers and false teachings and heresies (sects), which will cause the truth to be maligned, these teachers of fables (lies) will make merchandise of the gullible, and are subject to damnation because of their lies.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Peter is referring to the events described in Enoch 10 in regards to the binding of Azazel, Semjasa, and their cohorts unto the judgment day. Notice, he says 'if', meaning he is introducing an 'if...then...' statement. The 'if' is simply that if God bound the angels that sinned... then 'the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation to reserve the unjust to punishment'.

What does that have to do with anything? Well, common Jewish 'fables/myths' in the first century included the idea that angels sinned, married women and fathered children in Noah's day (leading to the Flood), and that they and the spirits of the destroyed hybrid offspring are roaming the earth attacking people, tormenting them as 'demons', and so forth.

Remember, the immediate context is false teachers and 'cunningly devised fables' spread by those false teachers, often to 'make merchandise' of people. Exorcism was an actual paid profession in those times (and still is among various people groups today). Exorcists claimed to be able to deliver people from evil spirits by virtue of their superior knowledge of the evil spirits and how they operate, etc. And they did charge money.

Much of these Jewish myths were found expressed in the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, the Book of Enoch, the Book of Jubilees, and other similar Jewish mystical and religious fiction writings. These beliefs were very common, very popular, and very influential in many quarters, even among early Christians.

Peter is warning about 'fables' and false teachers looking to lead people astray and make some money off them. His argument begins with 'IF' and then cites the book of Enoch (one of the more popular Jewish fables then extant) as evidence that people need not fear evil spirits roaming around doing bad things to them, nor do they need any special teachers or 'specially anointed ministers' to 'deliver' them from the evil spirits, because 'the angels that sinned HAVE BEEN BOUND'. And because of this, the Lord can deliver the godly and punish the unjust. One need not seek after or follow after any teachers bringing 'the deeper things of the spirit world' into your life (for a small nominal fee, or for a love offering, or whatever).

Why does Peter cite Enoch? Because Enoch was one of the favorite texts used by various sects of Judaism and early gnostic Christianity. He thus proves their inconsistency using their own literature, just like one can quote JW literature in order to refute their doctrines, because their own literature often contradicts what they teach. Using the literature of the false teachers to prove their inconsistencies is not an endorsement of the false teachers' literature!

2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds; )
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Following the citation from Enoch, he turns to the Scriptures and concludes with verse 9, as the conclusion to the 'if...then...' statement he introduced in verse 4.

He continues his argument:

2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

This is a description of the ungodly who are being reserved to punishment. Those who 'despise government'. These are not political anarchists, but they despise Divine government. They are presumptuous and self-willed, and are 'not afraid to speak evil of dignities'. Literally, they do not 'tremble to blaspheme glories'. The term 'glories' was a well-known term for the angelic hosts surrounding the court of God serving as a reflection of the divine majesty itself.

Exo 15:11 Who is like to thee among the gods, O Lord? who is like to thee? glorified in holiness, marvellous in glories, doing wonders. (Brenton's English translation of the Greek Old Testament)

Same word, 'glories'. The Testament of Judah (another of the popular 1st century era Jewish fables/myths) says 'the glories blessed Simeon', in a list of blessings on the twelve tribes (Test. Judah 4:29 - http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/fbe/fbe280.htm ).

(continued in next post)
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-26-2016, 07:37 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

(continued from previous post)

So these false teachers were speaking blasphemous things concerning the angelic and divine government of God. Obviously, Peter is saying these false teachers are teaching error (blasphemies) concerning angels (dominions and glories).

2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Peter here cites Enoch chapter 9, yet he contradicts the citation. In Enoch chapter 9 it was angels who accused the 'fallen angels' to God. Yet here, Peter specifically says the angels which were greater in power and might did not accuse them to God. This is a direct contradiction of the text of Enoch. The passage follows:

[Chapter 9]

1 And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being 2 shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: 'The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven. 3 And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause 4 before the Most High."' And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the 5 ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all 6 things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which 7 men were striving to learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the 9 women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. And the women have 10 borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are 11 wrought on the earth. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.' http://hiddenbible.com/enoch/online.html/

The four chief angels (archangels) of Jewish mythology accused the fallen angels to God. They accused the fallen angels of sinning, of miscegenation with humans, of fathering hybrid offspring, and of leading mankind into all sorts of evil. That is what the book of Enoch states. That is what the then[current Jewish fables stated. That is what was commonly taught among Jewish mystics and gnostics. But Peter specifically denies this.

2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Against whom? The 'glories' and dominion' spoken of previously. Peter is saying the false teachers are blaspheming angelic powers, whereas the angels themselves do no such thing - directly refuting the teaching of Jewish fable-masters who relied upon Enoch and other fables/myths for their authority. Enoch and the others have the archangels accusing the evil fallen angels of the various things the gnostics and fable-tellers likewise accused them of. Yet Peter specifically refutes this and denies it.

2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

The false teachers spreading fables and myths and making money off the gullible speak evil of things they do not understand (the dominion and glories, ie the heavenly government and the angelic orders). Furthermore, they will totally perish in their corruption. It is a serious matter the blaspheme the government of Almighty God. (What, do we think God alone is himself the whole entirety of his government? No, he has myriads of angelic beings that carry out the Divine will. To blaspheme the angelic beings is to blaspheme the government of God. Just as if railing blasphemies and calumnies against the police, sherriff's, judges, courts, etc is nothing less than a blasphemous assault on the entire national government. Rail against the king's men and spread lies and falsehoods about them, and you slander the king and his entire government!)

2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

These false teachers spreading their myths and fables which appear to center on blasphemy against angelic beings in the divine government of God are doomed, they are spots and blemishes in the church, they are immoral, they are greedy, they are cursed, and they divine for hire like Balaam.

2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

This is a series of references by Peter from the book of Enoch, paralleled in Jude, by the way, on the same subject, and making the same point. Peter (and Jude) applies these Enochian epithets to the false teachers teaching lies and fables regarding the 'angels' (namely that 'they sinned', fornicated with humans, produced hybrid offspring, and corrupted all mankind through teaching them forbidden knowledge and seducing them into rebellion, and resulted in the myriads of demons and evil spirits roaming the earth today which afflict mankind, and who can be taken care of by those 'in the know' - for a fee...).

2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

These fable-promoters and false teachers are leading people back into bondage, entangling people again in corruption and pollution. They are said to have turned from the 'holy commandment' and are like a dog going back to his vomit. In all these statements, Peter is saying these teachers and those they deceive with their fables and myths about 'angels sinning' etc are returning to something.

Israel came to the truth but often returned to idolatry and superstition. The Jews continued that tradition with their fables and myths, 'exorcism', mysticism etc, concerning Solomon and his command of demons through superior gnosis, the Star of Rempham (the so-called 'star of David' which is actually the hexagram of Solomon and is used for mystical and occultic purposes, usually exorcisms), their kaballah and all the other nonsense they came up with in the second temple period (and later). All that 'fable and myth' was really regurgitated pagan superstition brought from Babylon and Egypt, to which they were returning, with all it;s superstitions about divine beings leading man astray, fornicating with women, producing hybrids (demigods), being chained in Tartarus under the earth, below Hades, producing evil spirits that roam around tormenting people, requiring the services of 'experts in the spiritual deliverance ministry', etc etc etc.

So then Peter is actually refuting the Book of Enoch, and its fables and myths perpetrated by Jewish gnostic Essene and Pharisaic mystics and rabbis.

Which means the whole 'angels that sinned, mated with humans, producing hybrids, corrupting mankind, teaching and leading mankind into evil inventions and immorality, generating possessions etc etc' teaching is nothing more than Jewish fables and myths promoted by false teachers who are marked for destruction because of it.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-08-2022, 03:50 PM
mfblume's Avatar
mfblume mfblume is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,154
Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

Been away for a while and just popped in to take a look.

Good stuff, Esaias!

The alleged book of Enoch contradicts the Genesis account when it says these watchers built the ark when the bible says Noah did. I never felt anything fit with this book of Enoch and the bible. And Lucifer was only a king of Babylon, not satan's pre-fall existence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
(continued from previous post)

So these false teachers were speaking blasphemous things concerning the angelic and divine government of God. Obviously, Peter is saying these false teachers are teaching error (blasphemies) concerning angels (dominions and glories).

2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Peter here cites Enoch chapter 9, yet he contradicts the citation. In Enoch chapter 9 it was angels who accused the 'fallen angels' to God. Yet here, Peter specifically says the angels which were greater in power and might did not accuse them to God. This is a direct contradiction of the text of Enoch. The passage follows:

[Chapter 9]

1 And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being 2 shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: 'The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven. 3 And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause 4 before the Most High."' And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the 5 ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all 6 things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which 7 men were striving to learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the 9 women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. And the women have 10 borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are 11 wrought on the earth. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.' http://hiddenbible.com/enoch/online.html/

The four chief angels (archangels) of Jewish mythology accused the fallen angels to God. They accused the fallen angels of sinning, of miscegenation with humans, of fathering hybrid offspring, and of leading mankind into all sorts of evil. That is what the book of Enoch states. That is what the then[current Jewish fables stated. That is what was commonly taught among Jewish mystics and gnostics. But Peter specifically denies this.

2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Against whom? The 'glories' and dominion' spoken of previously. Peter is saying the false teachers are blaspheming angelic powers, whereas the angels themselves do no such thing - directly refuting the teaching of Jewish fable-masters who relied upon Enoch and other fables/myths for their authority. Enoch and the others have the archangels accusing the evil fallen angels of the various things the gnostics and fable-tellers likewise accused them of. Yet Peter specifically refutes this and denies it.

2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

The false teachers spreading fables and myths and making money off the gullible speak evil of things they do not understand (the dominion and glories, ie the heavenly government and the angelic orders). Furthermore, they will totally perish in their corruption. It is a serious matter the blaspheme the government of Almighty God. (What, do we think God alone is himself the whole entirety of his government? No, he has myriads of angelic beings that carry out the Divine will. To blaspheme the angelic beings is to blaspheme the government of God. Just as if railing blasphemies and calumnies against the police, sherriff's, judges, courts, etc is nothing less than a blasphemous assault on the entire national government. Rail against the king's men and spread lies and falsehoods about them, and you slander the king and his entire government!)

2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

These false teachers spreading their myths and fables which appear to center on blasphemy against angelic beings in the divine government of God are doomed, they are spots and blemishes in the church, they are immoral, they are greedy, they are cursed, and they divine for hire like Balaam.

2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

This is a series of references by Peter from the book of Enoch, paralleled in Jude, by the way, on the same subject, and making the same point. Peter (and Jude) applies these Enochian epithets to the false teachers teaching lies and fables regarding the 'angels' (namely that 'they sinned', fornicated with humans, produced hybrid offspring, and corrupted all mankind through teaching them forbidden knowledge and seducing them into rebellion, and resulted in the myriads of demons and evil spirits roaming the earth today which afflict mankind, and who can be taken care of by those 'in the know' - for a fee...).

2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

These fable-promoters and false teachers are leading people back into bondage, entangling people again in corruption and pollution. They are said to have turned from the 'holy commandment' and are like a dog going back to his vomit. In all these statements, Peter is saying these teachers and those they deceive with their fables and myths about 'angels sinning' etc are returning to something.

Israel came to the truth but often returned to idolatry and superstition. The Jews continued that tradition with their fables and myths, 'exorcism', mysticism etc, concerning Solomon and his command of demons through superior gnosis, the Star of Rempham (the so-called 'star of David' which is actually the hexagram of Solomon and is used for mystical and occultic purposes, usually exorcisms), their kaballah and all the other nonsense they came up with in the second temple period (and later). All that 'fable and myth' was really regurgitated pagan superstition brought from Babylon and Egypt, to which they were returning, with all it;s superstitions about divine beings leading man astray, fornicating with women, producing hybrids (demigods), being chained in Tartarus under the earth, below Hades, producing evil spirits that roam around tormenting people, requiring the services of 'experts in the spiritual deliverance ministry', etc etc etc.

So then Peter is actually refuting the Book of Enoch, and its fables and myths perpetrated by Jewish gnostic Essene and Pharisaic mystics and rabbis.

Which means the whole 'angels that sinned, mated with humans, producing hybrids, corrupting mankind, teaching and leading mankind into evil inventions and immorality, generating possessions etc etc' teaching is nothing more than Jewish fables and myths promoted by false teachers who are marked for destruction because of it.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-26-2016, 07:38 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

I'm just trying to work through this. On the one hand, a quick reading of 1 Peter and Jude implies they endorsed the book of Enoch and similar then-current ideas. On the other hand, those ideas are 1)nowhere found in actual canonical scripture, and 2)seem to be countered by a closer reading of 1 Peter and Jude, and 3)seem to be countered by other statements of canonical scripture.

I am open to other interpretations, but at the moment this seems to be what satisfies all the available data.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-28-2016, 10:07 AM
good samaritan's Avatar
good samaritan good samaritan is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 2,710
Re: Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parall

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I'm just trying to work through this. On the one hand, a quick reading of 1 Peter and Jude implies they endorsed the book of Enoch and similar then-current ideas. On the other hand, those ideas are 1)nowhere found in actual canonical scripture, and 2)seem to be countered by a closer reading of 1 Peter and Jude, and 3)seem to be countered by other statements of canonical scripture.

I am open to other interpretations, but at the moment this seems to be what satisfies all the available data.
How do we know that Peter was referring to the book of Enoch at all? Just because there may be a few parallels of the book of Enoch and 1 Peter doesn't mean that was intentional. I certainly find this thread interesting, but I don't think we can do anything but speculate. The fact that Enoch and the canonized scripture are contradicting is probably largely the reason Enoch isn't canon.Although there may be some truth (?) in the book of Enoch, it isn't the scripture.

It is interesting to me in the OT hell is always translated seol, but in the NT it is Gehenna, Hades, and in 1 Peter Tartarus. Hades and Tarturus are places of the afterlife in Greek mythology. It is interesting to me how culture shapes our terminology.

A question: Is there anywhere in the OT that indicates a resurrection? I don't doubt the resurrection, but I don't see it in the OT.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
II Peter 3:8 Uncle Joe Fellowship Hall 2 05-07-2011 10:31 AM
Then Peter said . . . Stephanas Fellowship Hall 2 03-26-2009 09:53 AM
The book of Enoch shawndell Fellowship Hall 19 01-24-2009 08:38 PM
1 Peter 3:3 Digging4Truth Fellowship Hall 10 10-30-2007 05:30 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Salome

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.