Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

He created his image before the Angels.

This is where I think your understanding of the Logos, and my understanding of the Logos, may differ. I do not believe the Logos was "created". I believe "in the beginning was the Logos... and the Logos was God". Which I understand to mean the Logos was (and is and will be) an intrinsic aspect of God's existence. The Logos exists because God exists, not because God "created" or "made" the Logos. For example, God did not "create" His wisdom in the literal sense, because that would imply there was a time when God did not have wisdom - which would make it impossible for Him to create it. Rather, wisdom always was a part of God's existence, it is a "by product" if you will of His nature.

I believe the same is true of the Logos. If there is God, there is the Logos, regardless of whether anything else exists.

I also believe that early Christian speculation concerning the origin of the Logos is what lead to Tertullian's ideas concerning the creation, making, forming, or "emanation" of the Logos, making it a distinct person from the Father. This in turn led to more speculation which resulted in the trinitarian view and the "eternal generation/begetting of the Logos".

[Michael The Disciple]

Esaias

This is where I think your understanding of the Logos, and my understanding of the Logos, may differ. I do not believe the Logos was "created". I believe "in the beginning was the Logos... and the Logos was God". Which I understand to mean the Logos was (and is and will be) an intrinsic aspect of God's existence.

Agreed that the Logos was and is an intrinsic aspect of Gods existence. However I believe the Logos (as the image) was created.

Col. 1:15-19

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

God created, or formed an image in which he would dwell.

Rev. 3:14

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

The Logos was in the beginning with God as his image. That is what I believe John is stating in John 1:1. Before the beginning (creation) there was no need for him to have an image.

No one else existed.

I also believe that early Christian speculation concerning the origin of the Logos is what lead to Tertullian's ideas concerning the creation, making, forming, or "emanation" of the Logos, making it a distinct person from the Father. This in turn led to more speculation which resulted in the trinitarian view and the "eternal generation/begetting of the Logos".

True. Did you read the study I posted in the first post of the thread? That is what Mark August, the author is trying to point out.

God IMO inspired John to write:

John 1:1

In the beginning was the logos and the logos was with God and God was the logos.

This was done to clear up the confusion of mens ideas that were circulating around Israel and the Roman empire.

God was referring us back to the OT when he existed as the angel of the Lord, his image. He did not want us to believe his Logos was simply a thought in Gods mind. Neither an "eternal son". Neither a begotten son that was another God person.

John taught the logos was GOD.

The Greek literally says "God was the logos".

It was PERSONAL.

John 1:3

All things were made by him and without him was anything made that was made.

Mark August

We also do not accept the 3rd Century Origenian theory of an "eternally generated Son", though we do acknowledge that Logos was resident in the mind of YHWH as Wisdom before the beginning in eternity.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Esaias



Agreed that the Logos was and is an intrinsic aspect of Gods existence. However I believe the Logos (as the image) was created.

Col. 1:15-19

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

God created, or formed an image in which he would dwell.

Rev. 3:14

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

I don't see where those passages are saying the Logos was created, though. If all things were made by the Word, then the Word cannot have been created or made.

John taught the logos was GOD.

The Greek literally says "God was the logos".

It was PERSONAL.

John 1:3

All things were made by him and without him was anything made that was made.

Which would mean the Logos always was, right?

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Esaias



Agreed that the Logos was and is an intrinsic aspect of Gods existence. However I believe the Logos (as the image) was created.

Col. 1:15-19

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

God created, or formed an image in which he would dwell.

Rev. 3:14

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

The Logos was in the beginning with God as his image. That is what I believe John is stating in John 1:1. Before the beginning (creation) there was no need for him to have an image.

No one else existed.


True. Did you read the study I posted in the first post of the thread? That is what Mark August, the author is trying to point out.

God IMO inspired John to write:

John 1:1

In the beginning was the logos and the logos was with God and God was the logos.

This was done to clear up the confusion of mens ideas that were circulating around Israel and the Roman empire.

God was referring us back to the OT when he existed as the angel of the Lord, his image. He did not want us to believe his Logos was simply a thought in Gods mind. Neither an "eternal son". Neither a begotten son that was another God person.

John taught the logos was GOD.

The Greek literally says "God was the logos".

It was PERSONAL.

John 1:3

All things were made by him and without him was anything made that was made.

Mike the Colossians passages and the Revelation 3 passages are referring to the man Christ Jesus. He was begotten, thats the only form of God that was ever begotten anywhere in scripture. That is referring to the humanity only. And even before He was begotten He was the reasoning behind every thing that was created and the blueprint of all things created. At that point the Logos was only God's visual manifestation or the Angel of the Lord, the Lord of Hosts. Who was only a terrestrial manifestation of a totally celestial being. But there would come a day where it was planned from the beginning that God would become a terrestrial being. And the reasoning behind this whole form of creation.

.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Mike the Colossians passages and the Revelation 3 passages are referring to the man Christ Jesus. He was begotten, thats the only form of God that was ever begotten anywhere in scripture. That is referring to the humanity only.

So you think...as a man...Jesus Christ created the Universe?

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So you think...as a man...Jesus Christ created the Universe?

No you missed what I'm saying. How bout this Mike go do a word for word study of those passages in the Greek and tell me what it's saying.

First off it is saying in Colossians 1:16 also in 20 read what the Bible is saying where it says "by Him". The first one is the Greek Word "en" the second "by" is the Greek Word "dia" which is defined as "through

the ground or reason by which something is or is not done, by reason of, on account of,
because of for this reason, therefore, on this account." Which is showing also the same thing as what Most Oneness people say about John 1:1-4. Which I believe is correct. But at the same time I believe this pre existant Logos is correct too, neither conclusion is complete without the other.
John 1:1-14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father." But God's terrestrial nature which the man Christ Jesus was made as a human version of, having flesh and blood as us, was one and the same with that. Just the Son was a relational term due to the humanity.

We can't separate them as person's but only separate the two because of nature's. They are one and the same besides for that.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

No you missed what I'm saying. How bout this Mike go do a word for word study of those passages in the Greek and tell me what it's saying.

First off it is saying in Colossians 1:16 also in 20 read what the Bible is saying where it says "by Him". The first one is the Greek Word "en" the second "by" is the Greek Word "dia" which is defined as "through

the ground or reason by which something is or is not done, by reason of, on account of,
because of for this reason, therefore, on this account." Which is showing also the same thing as what Most Oneness people say about John 1:1-4. Which I believe is correct. But at the same time I believe this pre existant Logos is correct too, neither conclusion is complete without the other.
John 1:1-14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father." But God's terrestrial nature which the man Christ Jesus was made as a human version of, having flesh and blood as us, was one and the same with that. Just the Son was a relational term due to the humanity.

We can't separate them as person's but only separate the two because of nature's. They are one and the same besides for that.

?

[Michael The Disciple]

I don't see where those passages are saying the Logos was created, though. If all things were made by the Word, then the Word cannot have been created or made.

Col. 1:15

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The Logos is the IMAGE of the invisible God the FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE.

Logos is firstborn of every CREATION/CREATURE.

The word was made, formed, begotten to be the place from which God created all things. From his image he spoke "let there be". The first thing God ever made was an image for some of his eternal Spirit to dwell.

Then he made all things.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Col. 1:15

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The Logos is the IMAGE of the invisible God the FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE.

Logos is firstborn of every CREATION/CREATURE.

The word was made, formed, begotten to be the place from which God created all things. From his image he spoke "let there be". The first thing God ever made was an image for some of his eternal Spirit to dwell.

Then he made all things.

His own image didn't have to be Created. All of that whole passage is talking about the Logos as the plan and the purpose. Before anything was made The purpose was already in God's mind and reasoning that He would come in flesh. He didn't create a image so that Angels could manifest a bodily form, so neither did He have to create a body for Him to manifest one either.

The only one ever begotten was the Son! Otherwise God Himself would be begotten, and He's the Self Existant One.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

His own image didn't have to be Created. All of that whole passage is talking about the Logos as the plan and the purpose. Before anything was made The purpose was already in God's mind and reasoning that He would come in flesh. He didn't create a image so that Angels could manifest a bodily form, so neither did He have to create a body for Him to manifest one either.

The only one ever begotten was the Son! Otherwise God Himself would be begotten, and He's the Self Existant One.

Go back to post 1 and click the link to Mark August study.