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Old 11-23-2020, 06:44 AM
shag shag is offline
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The fulfillment of Luke 11:51

Luke 11:47Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets whom your fathers killed. 48So you are witnesses and you consent to the deeds of your fathers, for they killed them, and you build their tombs. 49Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,’ 50so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation. 52Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering.”


Does anyone here (futurist) believe this(“required of”)has not been fulfilled?





Elsewhere in the chapter, our Lord said their generation would be condemned at the resurrection.

Luke 11: 30For as Jonah became a sign to the people of Nineveh, so will the Son of Man be to this generation. 31The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. 32The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.


Two different fulfillment’s?(one in first century, and one future at the resurrection and judgment?

Is it possible for the first passage to also be fulfilled at the resurrection/judgment?
If you believe that, please explain.


I personally believe the first had to be fullfilled in the flesh, in their lives while they were alive.
The latter at the resurrection still to come.
Maybe I’m wrong...



MTD?
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Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. - Eph. 4:29

Last edited by shag; 11-23-2020 at 07:40 AM.
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  #2  
Old 11-23-2020, 07:07 AM
shag shag is offline
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Re: The fulfillment of Luke 11:51

Similarly, in Luke 20:

And he began to tell the people this parable: “A man planted (I)a vineyard and (J)let it out to tenants and (K)went into another country for a long while. 10 When the time came, he sent a servant[b] to the tenants, so that (L)they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. (M)But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11 (N)And (O)he sent another servant. But they also beat and (P)treated him shamefully, and sent him away empty-handed. 12 (Q)And he sent yet a third. This one also they wounded and cast out. 13 Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my (R)beloved son; perhaps they will respect him.’ 14 But when the tenants saw him, they said to themselves, (S)‘This is the heir. (T)Let us kill him, so that the inheritance may be ours.’ 15 And they (U)threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 (V)He will (W)come and destroy those tenants and (X)give the vineyard to others.”


Is it at all possible that this “coming to destroy those tenants” can be yet future?

Anyone believe that?
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If you would win a man to your cause, first convince him that you are his sincere friend. Therein is a drop of honey that catches his heart...
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Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. - Eph. 4:29
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Old 11-23-2020, 09:29 AM
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Re: The fulfillment of Luke 11:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by shag View Post
Similarly, in Luke 20:

And he began to tell the people this parable: “A man planted (I)a vineyard and (J)let it out to tenants and (K)went into another country for a long while. 10 When the time came, he sent a servant[b] to the tenants, so that (L)they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. (M)But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11 (N)And (O)he sent another servant. But they also beat and (P)treated him shamefully, and sent him away empty-handed. 12 (Q)And he sent yet a third. This one also they wounded and cast out. 13 Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my (R)beloved son; perhaps they will respect him.’ 14 But when the tenants saw him, they said to themselves, (S)‘This is the heir. (T)Let us kill him, so that the inheritance may be ours.’ 15 And they (U)threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 (V)He will (W)come and destroy those tenants and (X)give the vineyard to others.”


Is it at all possible that this “coming to destroy those tenants” can be yet future?

Anyone believe that?
Fulfilled just like he said it would.
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Old 11-23-2020, 10:10 AM
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Re: The fulfillment of Luke 11:51

All that happened 2000 years ago. It is quite opposite of Zech 12 and 14 when Jesus saves national Israel after restoring Israel.... in the future. Chastisement is not always pleasant.
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Old 11-23-2020, 10:14 AM
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Re: The fulfillment of Luke 11:51

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All that happened 2000 years ago. It is quite opposite of Zech 12 and 14 when Jesus saves national Israel after restoring Israel.... in the future. Chastisement is not always pleasant.
Then what about those that are not Israelites?
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Old 11-23-2020, 11:42 PM
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Re: The fulfillment of Luke 11:51

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Then what about those that are not Israelites?
Leave that to God. He is the one that led the Jews back to Palestine after WW2. Prior to that, they were happily living in Europe. God is a master at detail.
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Old 11-24-2020, 02:55 AM
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Re: The fulfillment of Luke 11:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by shag View Post
Similarly, in Luke 20:

And he began to tell the people this parable: “A man planted (I)a vineyard and (J)let it out to tenants and (K)went into another country for a long while. 10 When the time came, he sent a servant[b] to the tenants, so that (L)they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. (M)But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11 (N)And (O)he sent another servant. But they also beat and (P)treated him shamefully, and sent him away empty-handed. 12 (Q)And he sent yet a third. This one also they wounded and cast out. 13 Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my (R)beloved son; perhaps they will respect him.’ 14 But when the tenants saw him, they said to themselves, (S)‘This is the heir. (T)Let us kill him, so that the inheritance may be ours.’ 15 And they (U)threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 (V)He will (W)come and destroy those tenants and (X)give the vineyard to others.”


Is it at all possible that this “coming to destroy those tenants” can be yet future?

Anyone believe that?
The coming to destroy the husbandmen would be followed by expanding evangelism:

Luke 20:16-19 KJV
He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. [17] And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? [18] Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. [19] And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

After the husbandmen are destroyed, the vineyard is to be given to others. Israel is the vineyard, the fruit is righteousness:

Isaiah 5:7 KJV
For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

The husbandmen are the rulers:

Isaiah 3:14 KJV
The Lord will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

They would be destroyed, and the lawful rulership of Israel would be given to others (His disciples, the church) which is what happened in AD 70.

Another parable on the same subject:

Matthew 22:2-7 KJV
The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, [3] And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. [4] Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. [5] But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: [6] And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. [7] But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

But after that destruction there is evangelism:

Matthew 22:8-10 KJV
Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. [9] Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. [10] So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
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Old 11-24-2020, 03:04 AM
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Re: The fulfillment of Luke 11:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by shag View Post
Luke 11:47Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets whom your fathers killed. 48So you are witnesses and you consent to the deeds of your fathers, for they killed them, and you build their tombs. 49Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,’ 50so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation. 52Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering.”


Does anyone here (futurist) believe this(“required of”)has not been fulfilled?





Elsewhere in the chapter, our Lord said their generation would be condemned at the resurrection.

Luke 11: 30For as Jonah became a sign to the people of Nineveh, so will the Son of Man be to this generation. 31The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. 32The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.


Two different fulfillment’s?(one in first century, and one future at the resurrection and judgment?

Is it possible for the first passage to also be fulfilled at the resurrection/judgment?
If you believe that, please explain.


I personally believe the first had to be fullfilled in the flesh, in their lives while they were alive.
The latter at the resurrection still to come.
Maybe I’m wrong...



MTD?
I'm not a futurist, but here's my take on it:

He stated FIRST that "this generation" would be condemned at the Judgment Day for their rejection of Christ. THEN He said "this generation" would pay for the blood of all God's martyred prophets. It seems that "requirement" would have to be ultimately met at Judgment Day, for the final penalty for such egregious sin could not consist in merely a temporal death. He did not say HOW it would be required of them, only that it would be.

The destruction of Jerusalem was a temporal punishment, whereas the tenor of His warnings in the chapter under consideration indicate eternal punishments are in view.

The temporal punishment is a harbinger of the eternal and final punishment. Temporal punishments always are, it seems. So then the nation would be punished as a nation when their iniquity was full (just as the Canaanites were in Joshua's day), which punishment came about in AD 70, which itself would be a foretaste of the eternal judgment that all the wicked are to face.
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Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/


Last edited by Esaias; 11-24-2020 at 03:13 AM.
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Old 11-24-2020, 03:14 AM
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Re: The fulfillment of Luke 11:51

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Originally Posted by 1 God View Post
Leave that to God. He is the one that led the Jews back to Palestine after WW2. Prior to that, they were happily living in Europe. God is a master at detail.
Too bad you missed all the actual details.
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