Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Sanctuary > Deep Waters
Facebook

Notices

Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #91  
Old 03-02-2019, 10:13 PM
mfblume's Avatar
mfblume mfblume is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post

I'm not I eisegeting anything. I had no opinion when I first studied those verses and got what I shared with you.

When you responded the way you did, you were not adding anything to the conversation, but just saying that I'm not, you are.
Grammaticians Beyond your and my abilities say what I'm saying. You want me to cite the scholars again?
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 03-02-2019, 10:14 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
If you're saying that you have to have the words that the work of the Cross was an actual New Creation after which got rested, then how come you don't have to have the words in Revelation that Jesus is the Lamb with seven eyes? Why did you go to Romans chapter 7 and 8 when we were talking about Galatians chapters 3 through 4? We have to put the whole picture of everything he taught about this situation together.
Romans 7-8 follow the same pattern in subject material as Galatians 4. Hence, my remarks on both passages. You do the same with Matthew 24 and the six seals, and other like things.

The Lamb in revelation brings to mind the Lamb of God per John Baptist's testimony, and Paul's "Christ our Passover".

The 'new creation at the cross' is a wholly imported idea from outside the Word.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 03-02-2019, 10:15 PM
mfblume's Avatar
mfblume mfblume is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post

Romans 7-8 follow the same pattern in subject material as Galatians 4. Hence, my remarks on both passages. You do the same with Matthew 24 and the six seals, and other like things.

The Lamb in revelation brings to mind the Lamb of God per John Baptist's testimony, and Paul's "Christ our Passover".

The 'new creation at the cross' is a wholly imported idea from outside the Word.
we all go to other parts of the Bible to understand certain verses in hand. And that's what I was doing with the issue of resting in Christ.

Then explain why we're called new creation in 2cor 5.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 03-02-2019, 10:18 PM
mfblume's Avatar
mfblume mfblume is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
we all go to other parts of the Bible to understand certain verses in hand. And that's what I was doing with the issue of resting in Christ.

Then explain why we're called new creation in 2cor 5.
explain why God said let there be light in Genesis, and 2nd Corinthians chapter 4 verse 6 tells us that the same God who spoke light Into Darkness has spoken into our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus.

Why do you think John started his epistle and his gospel by speaking about "in the beginning," and then speaking of light of which Jesus was?
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 03-03-2019, 12:44 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Grammaticians Beyond your and my abilities say what I'm saying. You want me to cite the scholars again?
"...which are a shadow of things to come..."

Please parse the phrase, and point out where the preterite tense is found. Thanks!
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 03-03-2019, 12:51 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
we all go to other parts of the Bible to understand certain verses in hand. And that's what I was doing with the issue of resting in Christ.

Then explain why we're called new creation in 2cor 5.
We are a new creature in Christ, our old life is over with, we have risen anew with Christ, the old man is dead and crucified, we live by a new impulse (the Spirit, instead of the old impulse of the flesh), Jew and gentile (Judean and Greek) have become one new man (that is, united as one people in Messiah, no longer separated), our sins have been pardoned, etc etc.

But that is not the same as saying Christ did a new creation (as, in a new cosmos, a parallel to the original creation of the universe) that has superceded the original created universe, so that we can dispense with the command to remember the Sabbath DAY to keep IT holy.

And anyways, the Bible specifies universal Sabbath keeping in the new heavens and the new earth, as I already showed.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 03-03-2019, 01:09 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
explain why God said let there be light in Genesis, and 2nd Corinthians chapter 4 verse 6 tells us that the same God who spoke light Into Darkness has spoken into our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus.

Why do you think John started his epistle and his gospel by speaking about "in the beginning," and then speaking of light of which Jesus was?
God said let there be light in Genesis because He was creating the electromagnetic radiation we call "light" as part of creating all things.

2Cor4:1-6 is about the propagation of the Gospel, the truth ("light") entering the heart where once was darkness. Now watch this:


Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

And again,

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

And again,

1 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

The Light of Christ is inseparable from the Word of God, including His law, testimonies, and commandments, as written in the holy scriptures. Why? Because in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

The Light of the Gospel does not abolish the obligation set forth in the Fourth Commandment, nor does it transfer that obligation to another day, or to no days, or to anything else.

Jesus is the incarnate Truth (God's Word is truth, and sanctifies us - John 17:17). Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, and we remember His Day that HE HIMSELF SANCTIFIED AND BLESSED AND GAVE TO US AS A GIFT because our God is the One who made heaven and earth and everything in it, and THAT God blessed the SEVENTH DAY and SANCTIFIED the seventh day as a memorial to the One and only Creator of all things.

Others will do what they will do.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 03-03-2019, 01:16 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: the decalogue today

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
The Ten Commandments are the representation of all the law of God proposed to mankind. They correctly showed man what was required of man in order to be righteous. They were not wrong nor error. Paul showed us insight about the commandments and indicated they were the ministration of death seeing as breaking the law decreed one was sinful and worthy of death, and man was unable to keep them. Had man not had sin, man could keep them.

All of them are relevant for today, however the shadow aspect Paul spoke about in the fourth cannot be ignored. It is unique. It’s ritualistic, seeing as it is memorial of God resting the 7th day after creation. And now there is a new creation, so we rest in a greater Sabbath, and thereby have no need for the shadow as far as righteousness is concerned.

Paul showed us, also, that the manner of flesh using its natural energy to keep those commandments has been superseded by a greater means of service to God. Oldness of the letter is self making self obey the law with one’s own goodness and energy, whereas the newness of the Spirit is calling on God in faith to empower us to do righteousness. I said that to indicate that reading a list of rules and making ourselves obey them is the oldness of the letter. Not to say those actions are wrong, but it is walking after the flesh to make ourselves obey rules and commandments. The Spirit will cause us to commit the same activities, or lack thereof, if we are led by the Spirit, which is what it means to have those laws written in our hearts. So, they’re all in effect today, but we’re not left to make ourselves obey them, but rather allow the Spirit to lead us and we will find that when the Spirit leads us we will do the things the commandments said to do, and not do the things the commandments said not to do.

Again, however, the fourth commandment was stated by the New Testament to be a shadow of the day of rest in Christ’s new creation, rendering the older shadow fulfilled and expired as to its purpose..
Bumping again for brother Avery...
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 03-03-2019, 07:52 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,774
Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Nowhere does Scripture speak of obeying God's law as "bondage",
Esaias,

This is absolutely false. Paul is certainly describing bondage to the law of Moses in Galatians. You are in my opinion, the very audience that Paul wrote Galatians for.

The church at Galatia was attracted to the security of the Jewish religion because the Jews had a deal with the Romans that allowed them to worship their God and even to exercise their own form of government within the constraints that they established (they couldn’t impose capital punishment being one of these constraints). The Christians were initially considered a part of the Jewish religion, thus they were able to survive under the umbrella of Judaism which was of course sanctioned by the conquering Romans. It soon became apparent that Christianity was NOT part of Judaism so therefore was NOT a religion sanctioned by the Romans. Hence it was an outlaw religion and lost the security of being sanctioned. Galatians is written to the churches that were tempted to retain enough of the Mosaic law to fly under the radar and get back under the umbrella of Judaism. This is what I believe as a result of studying the Bible along with secular history. You are free to believe it or not. It is not necessarily based on scripture alone, so take it for what it is worth.

But, as I said Paul is certainly saying that the law is bondage. Read below . . .

[21] Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, (this would be Esaias) do ye not hear the law?
[22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. (Hagar being the mother of Ishmael aka. the son of bondage which represents the LAW or the Old Covenant and Isaac who was the promised child which represents the New Covenant)
[23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Here you have it. Mount Sinai genders to bondage. This is referring to the law given on Mount Sinai.


[25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
[27] For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
[28] Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
[29] But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

The Jews were trying to put their traditions of the law on the Gentiles, like you are trying to convince us that your sabbath keeping is essential or even preferable for us.

[30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
[31] So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Just a reminder:
Gal.3

[1] O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Please understand, I am not trying to condemn you. I’m just trying to get you to understand.
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 03-03-2019, 08:36 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
[21] Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, (this would be Esaias) do ye not hear the law?

I do not desire to be under the law, I do not promote being under the law, I do not promote gentile circumcision or the old covenant.

It is clear to me that you haven't actually read my posts on this topic, in this thread. Skimmed them, maybe, but not actually read them.

In all the scriptures you posted, not one said the law of God (AS IN HIS COMMANDMENTS) are bondage. It is the people under the Old Covenant who were in bondage. Bondage to what? Sin. Sin is always and everywhere the bondage that Jesus came to free us from, along with deliverance from our enemies.

Can you not see that your reasoning likewise frees us from the necessity to avoid idolatry, or be faithful to our spouses, etc?

If obeying the fourth commandment = bondage then so does obeying any other commandment.

But, if you reject that, then to be consistent you must reject "Sabbath keeping = bondage" also.

Jerusalem which now is, and is bondage with her children... WHAT BONDAGE?

Jesus told Jerusalem He would make them free, and they insisted they were not in bondage. And He corrected them by pointing out that anyone trying to obey God's commandments was clearly in bondage needing Messiah's deliverance? NO! He said the sinner is the bondslave of sin. And then went on to say the slave gets cast out of the house, he does NOT abide forever. (John 8)

Just like Paul taught, the slaveborn who is in bondage is cast out. And who are the two groups being discussed? Old covenant and new covenant, Jew and Christian. One is in bondage to sin if for no other reason than the Scripture (the "law") has concluded EVERYBODY is under sin, and ONLY in Christ is a person freed from sin. The old covenant is God's laws written on stone and in a physical book, the new covenant is God's laws written in the mind and heart by the Spirit.

And what is sin? "Transgression of the law". So the Sabbath breaker is in bondage to the crime (sin) of Sabbath breaking, has a carnal mind (not subject to the law of God), minds the flesh and not the spirit (minding the flesh = death and the wages of sin is death, whereas the law is SPIRITUAL). So the Sabbath breaker needs Christ to free him from his sin.

All this was laid out previously, which tells me you didn't read it or didn't pay it any mind. Which is okay, we all do our lil' thang, whatever it may be.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf


Last edited by Esaias; 03-03-2019 at 08:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep? Bruce Klein Deep Waters 788 01-12-2021 04:41 PM
Sabbath Amanah Fellowship Hall 0 04-27-2018 05:40 AM
Lunar Sabbath? Esaias Fellowship Hall 3 09-24-2017 05:20 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Salome

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.