Help! What have I become?

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

So you are saying...

Ok, I get it, I'm doing a TERRIBLE job at explaining my position! LOL! I was going to answer some of the earlier stuff, but maybe this will explain my beliefs. I'll go back later and try to get to specific questions you posted.

But first, lets try something COMPLETELY new. Lets start at the very end of the story. I don't believe the Hollywood version of heaven, with floating clouds, and gates in the sky. For me, the VERY end is discussed in Revelation 21:1-8. You can read the whole thing, but to summarize for this discussion, this is the new heaven and earth. The old heaven and earth are gone. By this time, everyone and everything has been judged. You either go on to this new eternal creation, or you are eternally separated. This is the important part I wanted to get to: In this new earth, "...the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." For me, that is VERY CLEARLY the same one God of this creation we are now living in. This new creation is NOT the original creation that was made with Jesus in mind. That's all gone, passed away.

So where is Jesus in this new creation, God's son in his glorified body? There's really only one place I have found that fully addresses Jesus's future. It's 1 Corinthians 15:24-28. Here it is:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Ok, so now I will try to explain how I see these scriptures by posting them again with my belief of exactly WHO all those he's and him's are. For me, It can only be that one true God of ALL creation, OR the man Christ Jesus.


24 Then cometh the end,(THIS IS THE END OF THIS CURRENT WORLD) when he (JESUS) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;(GOD) when he (JESUS) shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (JESUS DOES THAT DURING HIS MILLENNIAL REIN)

25 For he (JESUS) must reign, (MILLENNIAL REIN) till he (JESUS) hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (THIS HAPPENS AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT)

27 For he (JESUS) hath put all things under his (JESUS) feet. But when he (JESUS) saith all things are put under him, (JESUS) it is manifest that he(GOD) is excepted, which did put all things under him. (GOD IS THE ONE WHO GAVE JESUS ALL HIS AUTHORITY)

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, (JESUS) then shall the Son (JESUS) also himself (JESUS) be subject unto him (GOD) that put all things under him, (JESUS) that God (GOD)may be all in all.



This idea of Jesus being subject unto God himself I've also seen eluded to in some of the original prophecy about Jesus. Here's Isaiah 42:

Verse 1. Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

I believe this to be the voice of God foretelling of the Son He will send. Jesus will serve God, He will be God's elect, God will uphold Jesus, and Jesus will bring forth judgement to the Gentiles.

Verse 4. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

"till he have set judgment in the earth:" I believe this verse foretells that Jesus "shall not fail nor be discouraged, till... ". That to me sounds like an endpoint after which Jesus will then subject himself to God.


Its alot! I know! Is any of this making sense? I'm not saying you must agree with this viewpoint, but are you at least able to see the point I am making even though you disagree?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

So where is Jesus in this new creation, God's son in his glorified body? There's really only one place I have found that fully addresses Jesus's future. It's 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

No, it is in the same Book of Revelation, in the same chapter:

[Rev 21:22-23 NKJV] 22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb [is] its light.

The role of the Sonship will be over, because there won't be more need of a High Priest, and a mediator, as sin will be over. But Lord Jesus will still be the visible image of God.

I'll come back to post some comments on 1 Cor 15.

Also, you haven't commented on the verses I posted saying that the LORD (YHWH) = Lord Jesus, and how your first argument explaining such in a different way is very weak.

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

No, it is in the same Book of Revelation, in the same chapter:

[Rev 21:22-23 NKJV] 22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb [is] its light.

The role of the Sonship will be over, because there won't be more need of a High Priest, and a mediator, as sin will be over. But Lord Jesus will still be the visible image of God.

I'll come back to post some comments on 1 Cor 15.

Also, you haven't commented on the verses I posted saying that the LORD (YHWH) = Lord Jesus, and how your first argument explaining such in a different way is very weak.

In Revelation chapter 21, we talked earlier about verses 1-8, that's the new creation that comes after this current world is judged and passes away. Verse 9 says, "...Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife", then it says in verse 10, "...And he carried me away... to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem...". So, everything after verse 10 in John's vision, is going back to the timeline of this current earth, where Christ rules and reins with His bride from "holy Jerusalem".

So lets discuss this millennial rein that happens on our current earth where Jesus rules as King of Kings. Yes, the spirit of God will also be there. The spirit of God will be IN holy Jerusalem lighting the city, the spirit of God will be IN the Bride of Christ, the spirit of God will also be IN the glorified body of Christ. But, the city is not God; the Bride is not God. And that leads me to believe that even though Jesus and God are both there on the throne, both lighting the city; Both still have their differences, and therefore I no longer say they are both the SAME.

Those differences are mentioned EVERYWHERE in the book of Revelation. They literally start in the very first scripture: Jesus's revelation was GIVEN to him by God. Why? So Jesus could send it US, by way of the angel, then John. Why do we need it? Because we need to know, watch, and prepare for the future events that will greatly confuse and deceive even his very elect, IF they don't KNOW what's coming next.

Does God give Jesus EVERYTHING He knows about His future plans? I don't think so. I find scripture where Jesus states only God knows that, so I believe God knows ALL future, Jesus knows what God has given to him. There are many scriptures where Jesus testifies how everything He has comes from the Father, and that the Father is greater than he is.

Also in the book of Revelation, there are TWO voices described, there are TWO descriptions that are tied to those two voices. Those two voices follow throughout ALL of the vision that John records, except for the new earth and heaven. I still intend to go into great detail on this, but I'll describe the basic takeaway for me of the entire dream timeline John had as it regards to our discussion about weather or not God and Jesus are the same.

For starters, there is only ONE on the throne. God and his sealed book. The Lamb is not on the throne. A throne is a symbol of one who rules and reins. The Lamb, Jesus, after fulfilling the sacrifice requirement of God, is worthy to take God's book and begin removing the seals keeping the book closed. Different events correspond with the different seals, trumpets, thunders, etc. A turning point happens at the last trumpet. There is no more time left. Christ returns, gathers his bride in the sky, and the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place. The kingdom of God begins. That begins the millennial rein. We, the Bride, are part of this government because Jesus has made us King and Priests unto God.

Sin is not over at this point. It won't be over until the very end, when the devil is released; people come against the kingdom; and fire falls from heaven and devours them. Here's an interesting point I've never heard sameness defined believers explain: If God has moved His throne to earth and dwelling there, who sends the fire from Heaven?

"...and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

To me I believe both God and the fire he sends are in heaven. Yes, His spirit is also here on earth operating in Jesus, in the bride, and in the city. But in addition to that, God, Not Jesus or his Bride, is the ONE still operating from heaven.

That changes in the new earth and heaven. "...And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven...". Out of heaven means God is still in charge of heaven, but here's something new, "...the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." Wow, GOD HIMSELF, dwelling with men! Yes, his spirit dwells inside us right now. But, this is going to be quite different! NOT just living with His Son, NOT just living with the earnest of His spirit like we have in us right now, NOT EVEN just living with the full measure of His spirit we will have when we are reining with his Christ; But we will be living with God himself!

For me, believing this does not diminish Jesus in any way. Without him, we would never have been returned to this type of relationship with our creator! To me, it sounds very similar to the setup Adam had in the Garden of Eden before sin entered man.

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Titus 2:13 KJV
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Jesus Christ is the one who is to appear. He is called by the apostle "the great God and our saviour". There aren't two beings who are to appear, the grammar is irrefutable and clear. Jesus Christ is our great God and Saviour. Is He YOUR great God and saviour?

Esaias,

Sorry its taken so long for me to respond to this portion of your post. I'll try to get to the lower portion later tonight on a separate post.

The quoted verse doesn't say "Jesus Christ is our great God and Saviour." Those are your words because that is your viewpoint. It says, "...God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ..." capitalization added to the "and" by me to point out the importance of the word. I think removing it would greatly change the meaning. I don't do that. I just believe it that way, I say it that way, therefore I think it that way.

But still, let's get down to the details of it. First, let's set aside the verses where Paul COMPLETELY explains what he means. It's just a few verses ahead in Titus 3:4-6.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

This is clearly NOT saying Jesus and God are the same. In verse 4, he does NOT say God appeared. He says God's kindness and His love He has toward us appeared; that's Jesus our Savior. Also, the washing and renewing God shed on us was done THROUGH Jesus.

Almost always, when the scripture appears to be saying God and Jesus are the same, keep reading. Or, back up a few chapters. You'll find many other scriptures that need to be read and thought of IN AGREEMENT of each other.

Ok, so a few details that might also come up. God is the savior, Jesus is the savior. Agreed. They must be the same? Disagree. I want to use an analogy to explain my beliefs. Remember, it's just an analogy. A criminal uses a knife to hold a victim hostage. A police officer shoots the criminal, freeing the hostage. Who is the savior? Is it the police officer? Is it the police department that sent the officer? Is it the nice lady that called the police department? For me, they're all saviors.

Another detail; You may ask, "If you think of God and Jesus differently, here the word APPEARING is used for BOTH. "...appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...". I touched on this idea in the previous post, but here is another thought. John 3:8:

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

This is how Jesus chose to explain the Spirit to Nicodemus. It's like the wind, when you hear it, you know its there. Also, we see the trees moved by the wind, we know its there and operating, because the nature of trees is NOT to move of their own free will. Also, for me, not all APPEARING is visual. Just ask a blind person. Even still, God's glory will light the city. But, I don't think of God's glory as everything that God is.

I just reread your comments and saw your point about two BEINGS.

I don't think of two beings. I would say Jesus is a being since he is a human being and had a fleshly body that is now glorified, but God is supernatural. He's a Spirit. For me, comparing them is to compare the Creator to His Creation. I know people do it, I just don't see scripture where doing that is necessary.

As a matter of fact, If you can show me ONE scripture that states that eternal life is based on believing that Jesus came AS a GOD or a GOD/MAN, rather than the multitude of scriptures stating you must believe God SENT Jesus as a man, that would be enough for me to never mention this thought again. Here's the first one that comes to mind:

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

[coksiw]

The Body of Christ is not God, obviously, nobody argues that. But Jesus as a whole entity is God revealed in flesh. He is fully human and fully God, and ONE person.

How do you explain some of the things Jesus said like "Before Abraham, I am", or "If you see me you have seen the Father", or all those verses in Revelation of what Jesus said? According to your view, he must have been bipolar.


You keep arguing that the Spirit IN us is the same as the Father IN the Christ. As far as I know, nobody in the New Testament has said those phrases as Jesus did. Nobody in the New Testament has sent people in their own name to cast demons out and to heal the sick.

Paul was very accurate with his use of terminology, for example, his use of "Lord" was always referring to Jesus Christ. He never used this phrase on a believer: "[Col 2:9 NKJV] 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;"

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

As a matter of fact, If you can show me ONE scripture that states that eternal life is based on believing that Jesus came AS a GOD or a GOD/MAN, rather than the multitude of scriptures stating you must believe God SENT Jesus as a man, that would be enough for me to never mention this thought again. Here's the first one that comes to mind:

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Who is Jesus Christ? The Son of God. You must know the Father and the Son to be saved. You must know God the Father, of all Creation, and the Son, that he sent for our salvation. How that contradicts that Jesus Christ was God revealed in the flesh?

[Esaias]

1 John 5:20 KJV
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

John 1:1,14 KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[coksiw]

So Mark, is it truly God the Father IN Christ, the same as the Spirit IN Us?

[Isa 9:6 NKJV] 6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Would you call a believer "Might God", or "Everlasting Father" because he has been filled with the Holy Spirit?

[jmarkoa]

Esaias and Coksiw,

Could you explain your viewpoint as regarding post #54?

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

...Please let me know how YOU define Oneness as it pertains to the way you believe.

I tried in that post to describe as briefly as possible how I now think about God and Jesus. Would you be willing to do the same? It would make this more conversational, and a true discussion.

Bible quotes are great for backing up a specific thought, but you've not made it clear enough to me what your specific thought is. I have found there is a "full spectrum" of ideas within the organizations that call themselves Oneness. But for me, this entire discussion is weather or not it's good and accurate to say, "God and Jesus are the same". For me, saying "same", has a meaning of pointing to a singularity. An example of how I'm defining same and how I'm not:

"I drive a Honda Accord. You drive a Honda Accord, too? I didn't realize we drive the SAME car!" This is not how I'm defining same, but this next example is.

"You wrecked your Honda Accord? Is that the SAME one you had last year, or did you wreck the new one you bought to replace it?" This is how I'm using and defining SAME in this conversation as it pertains to our discussion.

I hate to get all "Bill Clinton" on this defining issue ("It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is..."), but I think we should clarify our own definitions of these often times vaguely used terms. That would help me understand exactly what your specific thought is.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Esaias and Coksiw,

Could you explain your viewpoint as regarding post #54?

God and Jesus Christ are not the "same". We don't believe that.

God is Spirit. Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I do not agree that there is such a "wide" spectrum of believes regarding the deity of Christ in the Oneness groups. If you don't believe in the deity of the Christ, you are not Oneness, you are a Unitarian. You can redefine the words if you want, but the community will still say you are not Oneness.