Divorce and remarriage

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Unfortunately our culture has become way too lenient on divorce and that has bled into churches.

You are definitely right about that.

[Esphes45]

You actually used a scripture to support my argument.

1 Corinthians 7:11
But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

There is a reason to separate. How can two be joined together accept they agree. If one is no longer following the spirit, would you advise to stay together?

Please don't take this as a debate, I'm just trying to justify my thoughts biblically with other bible believers.

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by Esphes45

I'm just trying to justify my thoughts

Eggsactly.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

This one is complicated because it is yet to be determined. Many prophetic teachers teach about another reconciliation before the Lords return.

Romans 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

The apostles expected a restoration of natural Israel it appears here.

Acts 1:6
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Actually, it's only complicated because the Bible sometimes gets in the way of our eschatology and theology.

Hosea prophesied the reconciliation of the House of Israel (not to be confused with the House of Judah, they are two separate but related entities):

And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel. And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel. And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
(Hos 1:4-11)

According to the prophecy,:

1. The House of Israel was to lose their independent sovereign kingdom.
2. The House of Israel was to lose their lawful status as God's people.
3. This means they would essentially be classed as "gentiles" or placed in the same legal category as the heathen nations.
4. The House of Judah would retain their lawful status as God's people.
5. Nevertheless, the House of Israel would increase in number to be a vast innumerable multitude of people.
6. At some point, the House of Israel would be reconciled to God and be called "children of the living God".
7. In conjunction with this reconciliation, the House of Israel and the House of Judah would be rejoined together as one people.
8. This rejoining of the two Houses would include both of them acknowledging/recognizing One Leader (Messiah).
9. The reunited Messianic Israel would no longer be based in Palestine but would spread abroad.

Now, it is one thing to speculate about the historical fulfillment of prophecy. It is another thing entirely when the Bible itself specifies the historical fulfillment of prophecy. And the Bible identifies THIS prophecy SPECIFICALLY as beginning its fulfillment in the first century as an historical fact:

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
(Rom 9:21-26)

According to the apostle Paul:

1. God formed out of ONE LUMP two separate vessels (one to honour, and one to dishonour).
2. The vessels of honour (mercy) are the called (the elect), who have been preordained to glory, in other words believers in Jesus as Messiah.
3. Ergo, the vessels of wrath are the unbelievers.
4. The vessels of mercy/honour consist of both Judeans and Ethnoi (Jews and Gentiles).
5. This calling and uniting of Judeans and Ethnoi ("nations", "gentiles") is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Hosea previously quoted and analyzed.

Putting these two together, we can arrive at some necessary inferences:

• The Judeans ("Jews") in Paul's day were the House of Judah.
• The Ethnoi ("nations", or "gentiles") in Paul's day were the House of Israel. Remember, the House of Israel had been cut off by God and reclassified as "Not-My-People", ie "Not Israel" (legally), ie "heathens, the nations, gentiles".
• The Jews and Gentiles being united in Christ through the preaching of the apostle(s) was the reuniting of the House of Judah and the House of Israel as one people under One Leader, and being identified as "the children of the living God".

Therefore, the prophecy in Hosea, and the reconciling of the House of Israel back to God, and their reunion with the House of Judah, as one people, the children of the living God, under Messiah, was undergoing its fulfillment in the first century. The believing Jews in Paul's day were the believing House of Judah, and the believing gentiles/Greeks/nations in Paul's day were none other than the formerly cast off House of Israel who were becoming believers in Jesus Christ.

Both groups (Jews and Gentiles) referenced by Paul must be both groups referenced by Hosea (Judah and Israel). Paul even says the believers and unbelievers were made of the same ORIGINAL lump, and used the allegory of the potter and the clay. The potter and the clay is an old testament allegory used by Isaiah and Jeremiah to refer to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as the national group Covenantally established by God.

Historically, it is a well established and provable fact that Christianity did not remain in Palestine. Especially after the destruction of Jerusalem, the church (reunited Judah and Israel under Messiah) spread abroad and was no longer tied to the physical land over there in the Levant.

The spread of the Gospel was to the "lost sheep of the House of Israel":

Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(Mat 15:21-24)

Israel (the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) were the people previously ordained by God to glory:

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
(Rom 9:1-5)

The elect are those who were "foreknown" and predestinated to glory:

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
(Rom 8:28-30)

Whom did He "foreknow"? Israel (both Houses):

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(Rom 11:1-5)

The Israelites are the people whom God foreknew, and thus they are the ones who were called, and chosen (elect), and predestined for adoption as children of the living God, and predestined for glorification with Christ. These Israelites existed in two groups, one known in the first century as "Jews", and the other known in the first century as "gentiles" or "Greeks". The first century gentiles were the House of Israel that had been divorced and legally cut off from God, called to be reconciled to God through Christ and the Gospel (Good News). The progress of the Gospel has been primarily to those same people throughout most of history, which makes sense since from the time of their beginning they were prophesied to spread abroad in all directions, increase into a vast innumerable multitude, and become a multitude of nations, and eventually acknowledge Jesus as LORD and Christ, and take the Gospel and the knowledge of God to ALL nations, families, tribes, tongues, etc upon the face of the earth, to be a blessing to ALL nations, families, tribes, etc.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Actually, it's only complicated because the Bible sometimes gets in the way of our eschatology and theology.

Hosea prophesied the reconciliation of the House of Israel (not to be confused with the House of Judah, they are two separate but related entities):

And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel. And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel. And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
(Hos 1:4-11)

According to the prophecy,:

1. The House of Israel was to lose their independent sovereign kingdom.
2. The House of Israel was to lose their lawful status as God's people.
3. This means they would essentially be classed as "gentiles" or placed in the same legal category as the heathen nations.
4. The House of Judah would retain their lawful status as God's people.
5. Nevertheless, the House of Israel would increase in number to be a vast innumerable multitude of people.
6. At some point, the House of Israel would be reconciled to God and be called "children of the living God".
7. In conjunction with this reconciliation, the House of Israel and the House of Judah would be rejoined together as one people.
8. This rejoining of the two Houses would include both of them acknowledging/recognizing One Leader (Messiah).
9. The reunited Messianic Israel would no longer be based in Palestine but would spread abroad.

Now, it is one thing to speculate about the historical fulfillment of prophecy. It is another thing entirely when the Bible itself specifies the historical fulfillment of prophecy. And the Bible identifies THIS prophecy SPECIFICALLY as beginning its fulfillment in the first century as an historical fact:

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
(Rom 9:21-26)

According to the apostle Paul:

1. God formed out of ONE LUMP two separate vessels (one to honour, and one to dishonour).
2. The vessels of honour (mercy) are the called (the elect), who have been preordained to glory, in other words believers in Jesus as Messiah.
3. Ergo, the vessels of wrath are the unbelievers.
4. The vessels of mercy/honour consist of both Judeans and Ethnoi (Jews and Gentiles).
5. This calling and uniting of Judeans and Ethnoi ("nations", "gentiles") is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Hosea previously quoted and analyzed.

Putting these two together, we can arrive at some necessary inferences:

• The Judeans ("Jews") in Paul's day were the House of Judah.
• The Ethnoi ("nations", or "gentiles") in Paul's day were the House of Israel. Remember, the House of Israel had been cut off by God and reclassified as "Not-My-People", ie "Not Israel" (legally), ie "heathens, the nations, gentiles".
• The Jews and Gentiles being united in Christ through the preaching of the apostle(s) was the reuniting of the House of Judah and the House of Israel as one people under One Leader, and being identified as "the children of the living God".

Therefore, the prophecy in Hosea, and the reconciling of the House of Israel back to God, and their reunion with the House of Judah, as one people, the children of the living God, under Messiah, was undergoing its fulfillment in the first century. The believing Jews in Paul's day were the believing House of Judah, and the believing gentiles/Greeks/nations in Paul's day were none other than the formerly cast off House of Israel who were becoming believers in Jesus Christ.

Both groups (Jews and Gentiles) referenced by Paul must be both groups referenced by Hosea (Judah and Israel). Paul even says the believers and unbelievers were made of the same ORIGINAL lump, and used the allegory of the potter and the clay. The potter and the clay is an old testament allegory used by Isaiah and Jeremiah to refer to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as the national group Covenantally established by God.

Historically, it is a well established and provable fact that Christianity did not remain in Palestine. Especially after the destruction of Jerusalem, the church (reunited Judah and Israel under Messiah) spread abroad and was no longer tied to the physical land over there in the Levant.

The spread of the Gospel was to the "lost sheep of the House of Israel":

Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(Mat 15:21-24)

Israel (the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) were the people previously ordained by God to glory:

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
(Rom 9:1-5)

The elect are those who were "foreknown" and predestinated to glory:

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
(Rom 8:28-30)

Whom did He "foreknow"? Israel (both Houses):

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(Rom 11:1-5)

The Israelites are the people whom God foreknew, and thus they are the ones who were called, and chosen (elect), and predestined for adoption as children of the living God, and predestined for glorification with Christ. These Israelites existed in two groups, one known in the first century as "Jews", and the other known in the first century as "gentiles" or "Greeks". The first century gentiles were the House of Israel that had been divorced and legally cut off from God, called to be reconciled to God through Christ and the Gospel (Good News). The progress of the Gospel has been primarily to those same people throughout most of history, which makes sense since from the time of their beginning they were prophesied to spread abroad in all directions, increase into a vast innumerable multitude, and become a multitude of nations, and eventually acknowledge Jesus as LORD and Christ, and take the Gospel and the knowledge of God to ALL nations, families, tribes, tongues, etc upon the face of the earth, to be a blessing to ALL nations, families, tribes, etc.

Interesting thoughts, Esaias. So are you saying that when Paul used the word "Gentiles" he was referring exclusively to the house of Israel that departed from God, and not to the "nations" in general whether they were descendants of Abraham according to the flesh?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Interesting thoughts, Esaias. So are you saying that when Paul used the word "Gentiles" he was referring exclusively to the house of Israel that departed from God, and not to the "nations" in general whether they were descendants of Abraham according to the flesh?

I am saying the primary usage by Paul in the passages under discussion are referring to the gentile House of Israel (which must be the case since he specifically referenced Hosea which specifically referred to the northern House of Israel as a distinct entity from Judah). The other "non Abrahamic nations" are included by proxy as per Isaiah 56:6-8. The northern House of Israel was classified by God as Lo-Ammi, "Not My People", ie gentiles.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I am saying the primary usage by Paul in the passages under discussion are referring to the gentile House of Israel (which must be the case since he specifically referenced Hosea which specifically referred to the northern House of Israel as a distinct entity from Judah). The other "non Abrahamic nations" are included by proxy as per Isaiah 56:6-8. The northern House of Israel was classified by God as Lo-Ammi, "Not My People", ie gentiles.

That's an interesting thought.

I guess you also connect it to:

Gen 48:19 NKJV - (19) But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations."

[good samaritan]

Esaias, I don’t disagree with you, but have not caught up to you on all of your interpretation.

How do you understand this:

Romans 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Would not your understanding mean that the “receiving of them” as already taken place. If the gentiles and Israel are the same. It seems to me, Paul is making a distinction between Israel and the gentiles.

I think the confusion is that scripture mention Israel as a physical nation of people and also a spiritual kingdom of people, but they are not always one and the same.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Esaias, I don’t disagree with you, but have not caught up to you on all of your interpretation.

How do you understand this:

Romans 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Would not your understanding mean that the “receiving of them” as already taken place. If the gentiles and Israel are the same. It seems to me, Paul is making a distinction between Israel and the gentiles.

I think the confusion is that scripture mention Israel as a physical nation of people and also a spiritual kingdom of people, but they are not always one and the same.

I'm not sure he is saying that, but he can clarify. What I understand is that his point is that the Gospel is coming as a reconciliation to the House of Israel, which are spread out among, and mingled with the Gentiles, and the Gentiles themselves are also saved by joining the remanent turning back to God.

It stands in contrast with the idea that the descendants of Abraham by flesh took a second seat and the Gentiles (defined as not descendants of Abraham by the flesh) now took the first seat as the people of God. Instead, Esaias' point comes down to the idea that it is not the case, but that with Christ, the descendants of Abraham according to the flesh are still in the first seat. And the emphasis on the Gentiles in the NT, takes a different meaning when you understand it, in the context of salvation, as a reference to the House of Israel primarily, and then then the rest of Gentiles, that joined them in their turning back to God. It is a reinterpretation of "Gentiles" in the NT to keep the descendants according to the flesh in the first seat.

Heb 8:8 KJV - (8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

It has to do with the "graffed" or "grafted" theology, which plays nicely with the Sabbath keeping.

I somewhat agree with his point.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

That's an interesting thought.

I guess you also connect it to:

Gen 48:19 NKJV - (19) But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations."

Well, yes, that's certainly part of it. However, the verse in Genesis is talking about Israel (specifically Ephraim) becoming a multitude of nations, whereas Hosea brought in the added idea of nations as "heathen". That is, Hosea had more to do with the tribes becoming legally classified in the same status as all the other nations. The New Testament term "gentiles" means not just "nations", but has a theological concept often added to it of being "heathen" (similarly to how Greeks viewed everybody as either Greek or Barbarian, Judeans viewed everybody as either Judean or Gentile/Greek).