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Old 12-19-2020, 07:18 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Article On The Angel Of The Lord

Written by Jerry Hayes

We know that God is Spirit (Jn 4:24) and is omnipresent (1 Kings
8:27//2 Chronicles 6:18). We often say: “God is a Being whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere”. And yet: God has a throne before which His creation appears; and God, as a visible individual, sits upon that throne. (Job 1:6, Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, … . )

Of this visible and discernible Deity, we have the Bible presenting us with the following accounts: the Voice that walked in the garden in the cool of the day (Genesis 3:8); the Angel that appeared to Hagar with the promise of Ishmael and the great people that would come from her womb (Genesis 16:7-13); the One who appeared to Abraham with the two angels, Abraham washed His feet and ate with Him (Genesis 18:1-8); the Voice that spoke to Moses from the burning bush (Exodus 3:2-14); the Angel that went before the Israelites during the wilderness wanderings (Exodus 20:20-23); the Captain of the LORD’s hosts that appeared to Joshua (Joshua 5:13-15); the Angel of the LORD that appeared to Manoah, the father of Samson, (Judges 13:15-22). I personally would add to this lineup, Melchizedek (Genesis 14:18-20), although I know most would not.

Given the above, we must view God as having a general presence throughout the universe (in His omnipresent Spirit form), but also having a PARTICULAR presence that is Himself and not another sentient being. To this end the prophet Isaiah references this “Angel” as the Angel of Yahweh’s Presence (Isaiah 63:9).

Micah 5:2 references the pre-existence of Jesus. Jesus did not have pre- existence as the Christ (anointed man) but he did have pre-existence as God. Throughout the Old Testament the visible manifestation of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15 i.e. Jesus) was called the “Angel of the LORD”. The Angel of the LORD was not another person/being from the LORD (YHWH); but, was His tabernacled presence. We think the tendency of Pluralist theologians to reference the Angel of the Lord as a christophany is incorrect. There is nothing in the Old Testament accounts of the Angel of the LORD to indicate that He is any other than a visible and knowable manifestation of Father God. Thus, the traditional and orthodox designation of “theophany” should stand. (There is a movement afoot in the Pluralists’ camp to replace the word “theophany” with the recently coined appellation of “christophany”. By this means they attempt to remove any reference to a physical manifestation of Father God from Holy Scripture.)

When the Angel of the LORD appears in the Scriptures He is identified as YHWH Himself. He is called the Angel of His Presence (Isaiah 63:9). In fact it was the Angel of the LORD that spoke to Moses from the bush (Exodus 3:2 – 4:17).

Angel of the LORD Activity or Attribute Jesus

Genesis 16:7,13 Called “LORD” (YHWH) John 20:28

Genesis 48:15-16 Called-God Jude v25

Exodus 48:15-16 “I am” John 8:58

Exodus 13:20-23 Sent from God John 5:30

Joshua 5:13-18 Capt. of the LORD’s Host Isaiah 9:6

Isaiah 63:9 Redeemed His own Ephesians 5:25


A review of Old Testament texts such as Micah 5:2 shows the coming Messiah to have two sources of origin: 1. a temporal, earthly origin, i.e. Bethlehem, and 2. from of old, from everlasting, i.e. a Heavenly origin; here, the Hebrew reads “from days of eternity,” the RSV has, “from ancient days.” That this is referencing eternity past, and not just from a long time ago, is obvious since Daniel calls Yahweh, the Ancient of Days (Daniel 7:9). “From of old” is a Hebrew idiom meaning from eternity, as the very next clause states: “From everlasting,” i.e. eternity past. This, Micah passage, shows Jesus to have an eternal pre-existence; moving Him effectively beyond the realm of created beings. In this way, Micah demonstrates the human and divine origins of the Messiah. So then, both Peter and Paul would be able to speak of the duality of Jesus’ birth with such terms as “according to the flesh,” and “according to the Spirit” (see Acts 2:30; Romans 1:3-4). Therefore both apostles, just mentioned, demonstrated there was much more to the genesis of Jesus than just His flesh (humanity).

Although Jesus had pre-existence as God, he did not have pre-existence as the Christ, for the term ‘Christ’ references the Incarnation: anointed man. Neither is it proper to reference Jesus as “Jesus” in His pre-existence; Jesus is the New Covenant name of YHWH, and as such is a proper moniker only within the New Covenant.

According to the prophet Micah, the Messiah (Who would be born in Bethlehem) would be God. For Who else would have existence from eternity past? There can be but One Eternal! Jesus is true God from true God. He is Light from Light. Not as one would light one torch from another, but as the sunlight proceeds from the sun. Throughout the Old Testament, the visible manifestation of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15 the one we know as Jesus) was called the Angel of the LORD. The Angel of the LORD was not another person/being/self from the LORD (YHWH), but was His tabernacled presence (Gen 16:7, 13; 48:15-16; Ex 3:2-14; 23:20-23; Josh 5:13-15; Jud 13:15-22; Isa 63:9).

Answering An Objection

Some will object to the Modalist’s view of the Angel of the LORD by pointing to the Subject/Object address of YHWH to the Angel of YHWH found in 1 Chronicles 21:15. The Pluralists suggest that two distinct individual selves are in view here — two rational persons. This conclusion is arrived at because (in the Pluralists’ mind) one god-person spoke to another god-person.

“And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the Lord beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.”

My thoughts on 1 Chronicles 21:15 are as follows:

I am not at all certain that this is the same Angel referenced at other times as the angel of the Lord. There is a very real sense that all angels are angels of the Lord. But there is only one "the" Angel of the LORD. Same as there are many sons of God but only one "the" Son of God.

In this text, verse 15 states that God sent "an" angel to Jerusalem. This particular angel is called "the destroying angel". It is true that this "destroying angel" is referenced as "the angel of the LORD," but there is a question (in my mind, at least) as to whether or not this particular Angel is "the" angel of the LORD.

That being said, I see no problem with Yahweh communicating within himself. Paul wrote that God takes counsel with his own will (Ephesians 1:11). This is exemplified in Genesis 1:26 where he said "let us make man…"

We, as humans, have been made in the likeness of God. Perhaps we may get a handle on this but considering the way our minds work: we may have a decision to make, and as we consider different scenarios we debate within our own minds. There is a sense in which one speaks within his or her own mind and carries on a conversation with oneself as though he or she were two persons. Thus, we arrive at the decision needed.

Yahweh had existence outside the angel of the Lord, just as Yahweh had existence outside the physical body of Christ in the incarnation. So I see no biblical problem of Yahweh outside of the Angel communicating to himself, as he was actualized within and by the Angel, to halt the destruction.

The bottom line is: there are options of explanations available. One does not have to cave to plural god-persons and violate the Shema.



Apostolically Speaking;

☩ Jerry L Hayes
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  #2  
Old 12-19-2020, 10:41 AM
Birddog Birddog is offline
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Re: Article On The Angel Of The Lord

Mike, I don't do good with long postings so I will comment on this first paragraph which indicates to me the lack of understanding of Scriptures by the writer of this article.

I comment on this because usually the rest of the article is based on the first paragraph as the foundation. When the foundation is wrong then the rest of the article is flawed also.

This article is so full of error that I will only comment on the first paragraph to show the error of the writer.

Hayes wrote:
We know that God is Spirit (Jn 4:24) and is omnipresent (1 Kings
8:27//2 Chronicles 6:18)
. This is correct and Hayes acknowledges it is correct.

Now this next phrase is where he veers off. Look at how simple it is to do to go wrong.

Hayes says:

We often say: “God is a Being whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere”. And yet: God has a throne before which His creation appears; and God, as a visible individual, sits upon that throne. (Job 1:6, Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, … . )

He uses poetic language of Job to try to make a hard fact that God is NOT omnipresent but confined to a throne, that God is a visible individual who sits on that throne and that the sons of God, ie angels? came to present themselves to him.

Where did it talk about a throne that a visible God sat on in this picture?

That is called isogesis where a meaning is put onto a text rather than exogesis where a meaning is drawn out of a text.

Right there tells us that this person is in error and the rest of the article is useless to read.

Sorry for the cold hard dash of truth.
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Old 12-19-2020, 12:26 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Article On The Angel Of The Lord

And thats why this article needs to get out in the Apostolic ranks. The article nails it with scripture and your opposition is based on a mere attempted confusion bomb by calling the truth "poetic language".

Apostolic Oneness understood this at the beginning of the movement.
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Old 12-19-2020, 12:41 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Article On The Angel Of The Lord

Quote:
We often say: “God is a Being whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere”. And yet: God has a throne before which His creation appears; and God, as a visible individual, sits upon that throne. (Job 1:6, Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, … . )
We often say: “God is a Being whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere”. And yet: God has a throne before which His creation appears; and God, as a visible individual, sits upon that throne. (Job 1:6, Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, … . )

He uses poetic language of Job to try to make a hard fact that God is NOT omnipresent but confined to a throne, that God is a visible individual who sits on that throne and that the sons of God, ie angels? came to present themselves to him.

Where did it talk about a throne that a visible God sat on in this picture?
Although it can certainly be implied from Jobs story God has a visible presence, a place where it is located and angels that come before it other scripture makes it perfectly clear.

1 Kings 22:19

19And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.


Like Ahab some will NOT listen to the word of the Lord. They will blow it off as "poetic".

Others may BELIEVE what we are given to know about God, his dwelling and his angels.
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Old 12-19-2020, 03:52 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Article On The Angel Of The Lord

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Although it can certainly be implied from Jobs story God has a visible presence, a place where it is located and angels that come before it other scripture makes it perfectly clear.

1 Kings 22:19

19And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.


Like Ahab some will NOT listen to the word of the Lord. They will blow it off as "poetic".

Others may BELIEVE what we are given to know about God, his dwelling and his angels.
Hey, this guy believes you.



John 1:18
NO ONE has ever SEEN God, BUT the one and only Son, who is Himself GOD and is at the Father's side, has MADE Him known.


1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, and INVISIBLE , the ONLY GOD, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.


The only way God is seen is in the image of Jesus.

Isn't that what your teaching on the logos scuba suit is about? That the Logos created the logos and therefore the only way the invisible god is made invisible is when HE puts on His logos shirt and tie?
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Old 12-19-2020, 04:50 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Article On The Angel Of The Lord

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birddog View Post
Mike, I don't do good with long postings so I will comment on this first paragraph which indicates to me the lack of understanding of Scriptures by the writer of this article.

I comment on this because usually the rest of the article is based on the first paragraph as the foundation. When the foundation is wrong then the rest of the article is flawed also.

This article is so full of error that I will only comment on the first paragraph to show the error of the writer.

Hayes wrote:
We know that God is Spirit (Jn 4:24) and is omnipresent (1 Kings
8:27//2 Chronicles 6:18)
. This is correct and Hayes acknowledges it is correct.

Now this next phrase is where he veers off. Look at how simple it is to do to go wrong.

Hayes says:

We often say: “God is a Being whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere”. And yet: God has a throne before which His creation appears; and God, as a visible individual, sits upon that throne. (Job 1:6, Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, … . )

He uses poetic language of Job to try to make a hard fact that God is NOT omnipresent but confined to a throne, that God is a visible individual who sits on that throne and that the sons of God, ie angels? came to present themselves to him.

Where did it talk about a throne that a visible God sat on in this picture?

That is called isogesis where a meaning is put onto a text rather than exogesis where a meaning is drawn out of a text.

Right there tells us that this person is in error and the rest of the article is useless to read.

Sorry for the cold hard dash of truth.
I agree his use of Job is erroneous and does not properly apply to the subject under discussion. But aside from that, and perhaps a few other minor issues, I think the article is pretty much spot on, because it does not rely on the Job citation for the rest of the article. It goes on and points out the obvious: there is a seeming paradox in Scripture, where on the one hand God is invisible and omnipresent, and on the other hand He is seen and localised in His presence. Trinitarians and binitarians attempt to resolve the paradox by asserting two or more Divine "persons". Biblically though the proper resolution would be to assert God exists in both ways: omnipresent and invisible, and local and visible (visible to an extent), without being two distinct persons or beings.
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Old 12-19-2020, 08:22 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Article On The Angel Of The Lord

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Hey, this guy believes you.



John 1:18
NO ONE has ever SEEN God, BUT the one and only Son, who is Himself GOD and is at the Father's side, has MADE Him known.


1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, and INVISIBLE , the ONLY GOD, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.


The only way God is seen is in the image of Jesus.

Isn't that what your teaching on the logos scuba suit is about? That the Logos created the logos and therefore the only way the invisible god is made invisible is when HE puts on His logos shirt and tie?
Obviously you know the video has nothing to do with my beliefs or of Hayes.
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Old 12-19-2020, 08:47 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Article On The Angel Of The Lord

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I agree his use of Job is erroneous and does not properly apply to the subject under discussion. But aside from that, and perhaps a few other minor issues, I think the article is pretty much spot on, because it does not rely on the Job citation for the rest of the article. It goes on and points out the obvious: there is a seeming paradox in Scripture, where on the one hand God is invisible and omnipresent, and on the other hand He is seen and localised in His presence. Trinitarians and binitarians attempt to resolve the paradox by asserting two or more Divine "persons". Biblically though the proper resolution would be to assert God exists in both ways: omnipresent and invisible, and local and visible (visible to an extent), without being two distinct persons or beings.
Well let's just hope Mike begins to believe in only One God.
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