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  #21  
Old 10-03-2007, 07:38 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Originally Posted by RevBuddy View Post


Excellent thoughts, Dan!

It is so interesting that there is a general disbelief in "evolution" among Apostolics, and yet, many insist on creating an Apostolic historical heritage that has certainly "evolved" over the late decades of the 20th century.

Within our movement, there is a well-thought out departure from earlier reality. For the most part, today's church, whether minister or saint, has no knowledge or insight into the early 20th century Apostolics, their doctrinal positions or their careful habit of preferring brotherhood and fellowship to particular, personal analysis of the Godhead or specific interpretations of the Scriptures.

This is not to say that they did not hold doctrinal truths and absolutes. They most definitely did! However, they were neither held nor argued to the detriment of brotherly love and continuing fellowship.

Surely, they can teach us a tremendous lesson in this approach...alas, only if we would listen more carefully..

Coming from a person w/ real personal insight to our Apostolic heritage... your post is heartening ....

There may be one person who may be more Apostolic than I am ... and it's REVBUDDY.
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  #22  
Old 10-03-2007, 07:52 PM
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BrotherEastman BrotherEastman is offline
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Dan, I want to apologize for being hard on you. My attitude was not in really good taste towards you, and I feel like a heel. Even though I do not agree with you on most things, I admire your determination and zeal for what you believe to be correct. It is my opinion that you are the most outspoken person on this forum and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You aggravate me more than anyone else, hopefully I'll learn to be a bit more objective. You've got spunk and spirit, admirable qualities indeed. Please forgive me Dan. Good night and God bless.
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  #23  
Old 10-03-2007, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevBuddy View Post


Excellent thoughts, Dan!

It is so interesting that there is a general disbelief in "evolution" among Apostolics, and yet, many insist on creating an Apostolic historical heritage that has certainly "evolved" over the late decades of the 20th century.

Within our movement, there is a well-thought out departure from earlier reality. For the most part, today's church, whether minister or saint, has no knowledge or insight into the early 20th century Apostolics, their doctrinal positions or their careful habit of preferring brotherhood and fellowship to particular, personal analysis of the Godhead or specific interpretations of the Scriptures.

This is not to say that they did not hold doctrinal truths and absolutes. They most definitely did! However, they were neither held nor argued to the detriment of brotherly love and continuing fellowship.

Surely, they can teach us a tremendous lesson in this approach...alas, only if we would listen more carefully..

I'm listening RevBuddy and I like what you said!
Raven
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  #24  
Old 10-03-2007, 08:46 PM
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I'm not interested in arguing doctrine.

But historically - AND concerning the historical whitewash of the UPC's history ramrodded by Bernard and Hall - Dan is correct here.

The entire panorama of UPC history can be summed up in a conversation between L. H. Hardwick and J. T. Pugh after a coference sermon by a radical hardliner pounding the pulpit over "tongues or hell", "uncut hair on women or hell", etc. etc.

Pugh could not understand Hardwick's less-than-hysterical-enthusiasm over the sermon and said in a rather bewildered tone to him: "But it is our heritage!"

Hardwick replied: "It's YOUR heritage. MY brethren did not believe it."

And like it or not, Hardwick, Gurley, Goss, Yadon, Stairs etc. were there at the beginning and had just as much or more to do with the foundation and establishment of the United Pentecostal Church as did their more radical counterparts - the whitewash job by Bernard and Hall notwithstanding.

I regret that NFCF sank beneath the waves if only because I put forth what I feel is a quite valid theory that the doctrine of "completely uncut hair on women or hell" was initially pushed by Murray E. Burr in the 1950s and was virtually unheard of before then.

And turnabout at times is fair play.

C. H. Yadon was a man's man. His Christianity was in stark contrast to this "southern good ole boy gentleman's club" type that I grew sick of my final years in the pentecostal ministry and manifests itself in this "pack mentality" that gets played out on message boards like this.

He was a founding member of the United Pentecostal Church; spending 48 of his 67 years in the ministry with a UPC fellowship card in his pocket.

He built churches and districts. He was the patriarch of what was arguably the most prominent family in the United Pentecostal Church as far as ministers of achievement, perhaps rivalled only by the the name "Glass."

He lived by the tenets of the merger, that men would not contend for their personal views to the disunity of the body.

And in 1992, around the time of his 85th birthday and around the time his companion of 65 years passed away, he was thrown out of the United Pentecostal Church like a piece of old trash.

Yeah, yeah ... some will say he could have stayed.

Nathaniel Urshan even asked him after the "Affirmation Statement" business meeting: "You're going to stay with us, aren't you Brother Charley?"

C. H. Yadon was a man of principle.

He didn't look for loopholes.

My take on what just happened in Tampa.

Big deal.

So the UPC decides to climb into the 20th century when we're in the 21st. It just heightens the comedy that, as a 50 year old man, this organization is still arguing over what they argued over in Indianapolis when I was a 19 year old senior in Bible college.

But back to Yadon, who was a mentor of mine:

He of course would never have sought revenge.

In fact, here was his reaction to the aftermath of the "Westburg Resolution":

Quote:
The pressures through which I have passed this year of 1993 have served to deepen my commitment to my Lord Jesus Christ. The months of suffering and death of my dear wife Ruth, who labored with me in the gospel for over 65 years, is a great loss to me, my family and friends.

Two days after her burial I lost my membership in the UPCI, of which I had been a part in all of its history since 1945. This was not a light experience. I love the brethren and still feel they are some of the finest Christians and ministers of the gospel and are my friends.

But they are going in a direction I cannot follow. I know I have only eight grades of formal education. What ministry I have had I owe to my brethren and the grace of God. If I never again preach in their pulpits, I will die with the satisfaction of knowing I did not sign a resolution that I felt will prove to divide and destroy the movement for years to come.

I do not have bitterness toward my brethren. There is not one that I have lied to or about. This is the only fellowship I have known. I must say I have had a wonderful journey up to this point. What little future I have left belongs to the Lord.

I know I see things different in the scripture from some others. I believe this will always be. I have not pushed my views to the disunity of the body and I think I have lived by the merger agreement.

Since this was not enough for some, I have chosen to walk alone. I have had to face this decision late in life (85 years) but I do it with peace in my heart and a commitment by which I am ready to live or die. I have not ceased to pray that the Lord will deliver us from evil and lead us in the paths of righteousness for his Holy Name's sake.

And - again despite the attempted whitewash: what he told Thomas Fudge was this: "What they are telling you what we believed is NOT what we believed."

Anyway, my "spirit" is not as good as Yadon's.

The fact that 15 years after the Westburg resolution, that some of these same radicals who forced men like Yadon out are now being forced out of the United Pentecostal Church:

From that I personally take a bit of satisfaction.
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  #25  
Old 10-03-2007, 09:02 PM
Nahum Nahum is offline
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Timlan, my bottom line is that I don't give a flyin' fajita about what constitutes PCI or PAJC doctrine. Call me an ungrateful whelp - I don't care.

I only know what I personally believe, that's all.

I have no allegiance to some mystical band of brothers from 60 years ago.

However, I can see where some angst is merited, especially in the area of mandated extra-biblical holiness standards.
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  #26  
Old 10-03-2007, 09:04 PM
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freeatlast freeatlast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherEastman View Post
Dan, I want to apologize for being hard on you. My attitude was not in really good taste towards you, and I feel like a heel. Even though I do not agree with you on most things, I admire your determination and zeal for what you believe to be correct. It is my opinion that you are the most outspoken person on this forum and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You aggravate me more than anyone else, hopefully I'll learn to be a bit more objective. You've got spunk and spirit, admirable qualities indeed. Please forgive me Dan. Good night and God bless.
The truth hurts Br Eatsman: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
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God has lavished his love upon me.
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  #27  
Old 10-03-2007, 09:09 PM
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Raven Raven is offline
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Timlan
Great statement! Being part of a very conservative group in the West over 25 years ago I too saw the re-writing of UPC history. It was this blindness? ... ignorance? ... wilfull distortion? ... that turned me to searching our past for the true foundation. What I discovered over a period of years was enlightening as well as disturbing. I wasn't to be so easily mislead for I had been an eyewitness to a great deal of history. In 1948 as a young boy I sat on the lap of Ila Ashcraft, the National Ladies Aux. President, and watched the General Conference unfold in Long Beach California. I know the Yadon's and their story well. Let the revisers spin their tales but there are some of us who know the truth!
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  #28  
Old 10-03-2007, 09:14 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven View Post
Timlan
Great statement! Being part of a very conservative group in the West over 25 years ago I too saw the re-writing of UPC history. It was this blindness? ... ignorance? ... wilfull distortion? ... that turned me to searching our past for the true foundation. What I discovered over a period of years was enlightening as well as disturbing. I wasn't to be so easily mislead for I had been an eyewitness to a great deal of history. In 1948 as a young boy I sat on the lap of Ila Ashcraft, the National Ladies Aux. President, and watched the General Conference unfold in Long Beach California. I know the Yadon's and their story well. Let the revisers spin their tales but there are some of us who know the truth!
It's men like you, RevBuddy and Timlan that must tell the story ... you know it better than I do ... What I've learned has been from just reading in less than a year's time ...

But as a young man ... living in the mod/liberal New York Metro District ... we never got the whole story.

Please tell it.
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  #29  
Old 10-03-2007, 09:15 PM
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James Griffin James Griffin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlan2057 View Post
I'm not interested in arguing doctrine.

But historically - AND concerning the historical whitewash of the UPC's history ramrodded by Bernard and Hall - Dan is correct here.

The entire panorama of UPC history can be summed up in a conversation between L. H. Hardwick and J. T. Pugh after a coference sermon by a radical hardliner pounding the pulpit over "tongues or hell", "uncut hair on women or hell", etc. etc.

Pugh could not understand Hardwick's less-than-hysterical-enthusiasm over the sermon and said in a rather bewildered tone to him: "But it is our heritage!"

Hardwick replied: "It's YOUR heritage. MY brethren did not believe it."

And like it or not, Hardwick, Gurley, Goss, Yadon, Stairs etc. were there at the beginning and had just as much or more to do with the foundation and establishment of the United Pentecostal Church as did their more radical counterparts - the whitewash job by Bernard and Hall notwithstanding.

I regret that NFCF sank beneath the waves if only because I put forth what I feel is a quite valid theory that the doctrine of "completely uncut hair on women or hell" was initially pushed by Murray E. Burr in the 1950s and was virtually unheard of before then.

And turnabout at times is fair play.

C. H. Yadon was a man's man. His Christianity was in stark contrast to this "southern good ole boy gentleman's club" type that I grew sick of my final years in the pentecostal ministry and manifests itself in this "pack mentality" that gets played out on message boards like this.

He was a founding member of the United Pentecostal Church; spending 48 of his 67 years in the ministry with a UPC fellowship card in his pocket.

He built churches and districts. He was the patriarch of what was arguably the most prominent family in the United Pentecostal Church as far as ministers of achievement, perhaps rivalled only by the the name "Glass."

He lived by the tenets of the merger, that men would not contend for their personal views to the disunity of the body.

And in 1992, around the time of his 85th birthday and around the time his companion of 65 years passed away, he was thrown out of the United Pentecostal Church like a piece of old trash.

Yeah, yeah ... some will say he could have stayed.

Nathaniel Urshan even asked him after the "Affirmation Statement" business meeting: "You're going to stay with us, aren't you Brother Charley?"

C. H. Yadon was a man of principle.

He didn't look for loopholes.

My take on what just happened in Tampa.

Big deal.

So the UPC decides to climb into the 20th century when we're in the 21st. It just heightens the comedy that, as a 50 year old man, this organization is still arguing over what they argued over in Indianapolis when I was a 19 year old senior in Bible college.

But back to Yadon, who was a mentor of mine:

He of course would never have sought revenge.

In fact, here was his reaction to the aftermath of the "Westburg Resolution":



And - again despite the attempted whitewash: what he told Thomas Fudge was this: "What they are telling you what we believed is NOT what we believed."

Anyway, my "spirit" is not as good as Yadon's.

The fact that 15 years after the Westburg resolution, that some of these same radicals who forced men like Yadon out are now being forced out of the United Pentecostal Church:

From that I personally take a bit of satisfaction.
Well Tim if your chess has improved as much as your articulation the last 31 years you may finally stand a chance. Look me up sometime would love to reconnect.

Well spoken.
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  #30  
Old 10-03-2007, 09:19 PM
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James Griffin James Griffin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Poster View Post
Timlan, my bottom line is that I don't give a flyin' fajita about what constitutes PCI or PAJC doctrine. Call me an ungrateful whelp - I don't care.

I only know what I personally believe, that's all.

I have no allegiance to some mystical band of brothers from 60 years ago.

However, I can see where some angst is merited, especially in the area of mandated extra-biblical holiness standards.
Without weighing doctrinally, to be fair I believe you have made statements implying that Dan et al were trying to move from their roots. They are remaining true.

Therefore perhaps an agreement. Instead of playing who is holding heritage hostage perhaps the discussion could stay centered on scriptural application?
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