25: And when they had preached the word in Perga, they went down into Attalia:
26: And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled.
27: And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
28: And there they abode long time with the disciples.
Forget about the chapter divisions. They were at Antioch when the Judaizers came on the scene.
1: And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2: When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3: And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4: And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5: But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Quote:
I do not assume the whole Church body was. However, the possibility exists that, when not among the Assembly of Believers, some were still engaging in Paganism until they were fully discipled on the subject.
Why do I think that? Because the situation of a 1st Century new convert is no different than today. Many new converts have a supernatural encounter with the Holy Spirit but won't give up their non-Godly lifestyle for a few weeks (i.e. perverse message t-shirts, foul language music, porn, etc.) until the Pastor/Clergy is able to disciple the new convert on what a godly lifestyle entails. It was no different for the 1st Century Gentile new convert in Antioch.
If you follow the Antioch timeline they had been in existence for at least 2 or 3 years.
Quote:
The Jerusalem Council's 4 prohibitions ensured that the Gentiles were no longer participating in the idolatry of their local temples while being part of the Body of Messiah. Engaging in these acts would exclude them from fellowship in the synagogue. Implementing these 4 prohibitions was the starting point for the Gentiles in their discipleship.
Two things. When you refer to the Antioch Synagogue do you mean the Assembly of Messianic Believers or the meeting of the non believing Jews?
Secondly these 4 prohibitions were by no means the beginning of their discipleship. The Antioch Church had been going on for a number of years. Their discipleship began when they repented and were baptized into his name.
Thank you, Michael for the Scripture references.
You mentioned Abagus and then the Judaizers afterwards, so while I was focusing to find where Acts 11 mentions Judaizers, you weren't referring to Judaizers in chapter 11, but had shifted to Acts 15, and I didn't make the shift in focus with you.
And yes (by the way, I neglected to say this in the previous post ), I agree with you that the trouble started when the Pharisees (probably from the stricter school of Shammai) demanded formal conversion into the Jewish community and adherence to the way the Pharisees interpreted it. You'll recall that Jesus referred to the Pharisees as the ones who occupied the seat of Moses, so they were the ruling authority. If you weren't obeying Torah their way, you weren't obeying it, according to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
If you follow the Antioch timeline they had been in existence for at least 2 or 3 years.
Understood. Again, you're correct in stating the church in Antioch had been around for a few years. Based on human nature however, I'm not convinced that every single person in the group was completely refraining from paganistic activity OUTSIDE of the time when the Antioch assembly gathered together. What they did inside the synagogue was one thing, but what they did outside of it was another. These 4 specific prohibitions addressed the core of pagan practices, so it seems strange to enact these prohibitions if paganism wasn't a problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
Two things. When you refer to the Antioch Synagogue do you mean the Assembly of Messianic Believers or the meeting of the non believing Jews?
Neither, Brother. I refer to the meeting place where Moses is read on Shabbat.
It is here where Antioch's traditional Jews, Nazarene Jews, and Gentile Believers gathered to hear the Torah portion of the week and the accompanying Haftorah portion from the Prophets. They did this until the eventual day came when the traditional Jews expelled the Believers from the synagogue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
Secondly these 4 prohibitions were by no means the beginning of their discipleship. The Antioch Church had been going on for a number of years. Their discipleship began when they repented and were baptized into his name.
This is not consistent with the mannerisms of 1st Century discipleship. If we're referring to an entrance into the Kingdom of G-d, then we're in agreement, but discipleship begins when you learn the ways of the Master/Rabbi/Teacher. I've seen too many people come to repentance, get baptized in Jesus' Name, speak in tongues, and then almost immediately deny Him by their lifestyle, citing, "That Holy Ghost lifestyle's not for me. I can't live THAT way." I'm sorry that we don't agree on this, Michael, but I believe a new convert is not a disciple until he/she chooses to be disciplized, which is to learn the ways of The Master Yeshua, like the Apostles did back then.
A 1st Century disciple of Jesus will learn from the Apostles that The Master kept the Sabbath day holy. A disciple imitates his Master.
May your Sabbath be filled with good food, the fellowship of family and friends, the Good Word, and rest from your labors. May it be for me also, as my family celebrates the One who is the Lord of the Sabbath: Yeshua, ha-Adon b' ha-Shabbat! Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath!
Shabbat Shalom, Michael!
__________________
I’m not a scholar, just a crazy Jewish Believer who wants to see no one deceived and everyone saved.
Shalom uv’racha b’shem Yeshua Mishikheinu!
Peace and blessings unto you in the Name of Yeshua, Our Messiah!
It is really amazing the logical contortions and scripture manipulation that folks will engage in in order to satisfy another man-made doctrine and defend - at almost any cost - a religious tradition that has, in fact, no bases in scripture.
Granted, the Seventh-day Adventist have done a remarkable job of turning away almost everyone they could reach, from actually considering the seventh day observance of the Sabbath. Yet, just because falling out of a plane can kill you is no reason for out-lawing sky-diving.
This link provides a collection of hard facts that are worthy of serious consideration, Confessions about Sunday.
After prayerfully considering the evidence of man's tampering with the Law of God, one might like to consider a more biblically based approach, as observed by most Messianic Jews Shabbat (Sabbath)
Please, take your time, study the evidence, and place the question before God - and share the above information with your pastor and other religious leaders. Where does the Bible, religious traditions and doctrines of men meet?
In the Oneness movement, we have a mantra that goes something like this: We have the truth! We have the truth! We have the truth! Perhaps it is time we started to reexamine some of our self proclaimed truths.
Bottom line: Observe whatever day you choose for worship and/or for rest. Just be careful how the observance is justified.
Shalom Aiechem
As a post script:
While the seventh day was always observed as the Jewish Shabbat, Saturday did not become the observed Jewish Sabbath Day until the middle of the 4th century. But, that is another subject.
__________________
It makes no difference whether you study in the holy language, or in Arabic, or Aramaic [or in Greek or even in English]; it matters only whether it is done with understanding. - Moshe Maimonides.
I believe in studying the word and discovering new revelations. I also believe in people trying to find "the hidden secrets to pleasing God". Like preachers who preach big fancy sermons, thinking that God has showed this a deep secret. A revelation so powerful that we are so blessed that the preacher is sharing it with us. Many even have smirks on there face when they are in the middle of saying it, like "ah ha! bet that just blew your mind!"
The subject of the sabbath is bleh to me. From what I've read in the new testament I have always felt it was part of the old law that has passed away. I pray that God will open my understand and correct my thoughts if I am wrong there. I've ready quite a bit here, and i'm far from convinced. This is why God must take it from here. I'd be more than glad to if he shows me I need too.
In answer to my question what you meant by the Synagogue you said:
Quote:
Neither, Brother. I refer to the meeting place where Moses is read on Shabbat.
It is here where Antioch's traditional Jews, Nazarene Jews, and Gentile Believers gathered to hear the Torah portion of the week and the accompanying Haftorah portion from the Prophets. They did this until the eventual day came when the traditional Jews expelled the Believers from the synagogue.
And believe me according to the Book of Acts it did not take long except in Judea itself perhaps. In about all the cases where its recorded that the gospel was preached in the Synagogues the Apostles were persecuted and cast out.
New Covenant Assemblies were established soon after the Gospel was preached. The doctrine among Messianics that the Believers were to continue to meet in the Jewish Synagogues is far off base.
Notice the same regions where Paul preached Assemblies popped up quickly not years later. The believers that Yeshua was the Messiah fellowshipped and learned from their own Teachers NOT from anti Messiah leaders of the Synagogues they were forced out of.
23: And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. Acts 14:23
The Synagogues they had to leave were busy preaching against Yeshua and persecuting the believers.
I believe in studying the word and discovering new revelations. I also believe in people trying to find "the hidden secrets to pleasing God". Like preachers who preach big fancy sermons, thinking that God has showed this a deep secret. A revelation so powerful that we are so blessed that the preacher is sharing it with us. Many even have smirks on there face when they are in the middle of saying it, like "ah ha! bet that just blew your mind!"
The subject of the sabbath is bleh to me. From what I've read in the new testament I have always felt it was part of the old law that has passed away. I pray that God will open my understand and correct my thoughts if I am wrong there. I've ready quite a bit here, and i'm far from convinced. This is why God must take it from here. I'd be more than glad to if he shows me I need too.
Excellent! Now, what would God have to do to accomplish this revelation?
An idea: Find the scriptural definition of sin (not just an example) and you might be well on your way.
__________________
It makes no difference whether you study in the holy language, or in Arabic, or Aramaic [or in Greek or even in English]; it matters only whether it is done with understanding. - Moshe Maimonides.
It is really amazing the logical contortions and scripture manipulation that folks will engage in in order to satisfy another man-made doctrine and defend - at almost any cost - a religious tradition that has, in fact, no bases in scripture.
Granted, the Seventh-day Adventist have done a remarkable job of turning away almost everyone they could reach, from actually considering the seventh day observance of the Sabbath. Yet, just because falling out of a plane can kill you is no reason for out-lawing sky-diving.
This link provides a collection of hard facts that are worthy of serious consideration, Confessions about Sunday.
After prayerfully considering the evidence of man's tampering with the Law of God, one might like to consider a more biblically based approach, as observed by most Messianic Jews Shabbat (Sabbath)
Please, take your time, study the evidence, and place the question before God - and share the above information with your pastor and other religious leaders. Where does the Bible, religious traditions and doctrines of men meet?
In the Oneness movement, we have a mantra that goes something like this: We have the truth! We have the truth! We have the truth! Perhaps it is time we started to reexamine some of our self proclaimed truths.
Bottom line: Observe whatever day you choose for worship and/or for rest. Just be careful how the observance is justified.
Shalom Aiechem
As a post script:
While the seventh day was always observed as the Jewish Shabbat, Saturday did not become the observed Jewish Sabbath Day until the middle of the 4th century. But, that is another subject.
One of my Christian History books quotes Justin Martyr as saying that the Christians of his day met early Sunday morning for hyms, testimonies, and prayers because this was the day that the Lord Jesus was resurrected.
One of my Christian History books quotes Justin Martyr as saying that the Christians of his day met early Sunday morning for hyms, testimonies, and prayers because this was the day that the Lord Jesus was resurrected.
More of Bro-Larry's crazy ideas.
But Jesus was put in the "belly of the earth", at 6 PM Wed, so just count off three nights and three days, and you will find out when Jesus rose from the dead.
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The Gospel of Jesus Christ: Jesus bore away my sins, my sickness, and my poverty. That covers it all. Everything else is just legalism.
I can't think of an exact verse or scripture, but I would think it was "disobedience to God". Is that close?
And to make sure I have this straight, We should Observe the sabbath on any given day, as long it is unto God, to rest, or worship, and commit that day to the Lord? I could have that all wrong as I feel slightly confused, but I've read much today. My mind needs a break
First, during the time of Christ the Romans followed an eight day ten month calendar, and the Jews did not follow the Roman calendar at all (except in their dealings with the Romans). During this period, and for the next 450 (est), the Jews still used the Tanakh lunar calendar. One of the things about the Jews (Observant and Messianic alike) that drove Emperor Constantine crazy.
Anyway, the Sunday through Saturday, seven day week had not yet been invented. But first day through seventh day, lunar week and month was still in effect for the Jews. And, the last Shabbat of the month could be as long as three Roman, solar days! Talk about taking a day off!
Then, of course, that also required the celebration of the New Moon. Remember reading about that in the N.T.? Happy days are here again!
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Added note, I don't remember, its been too long ago. It could be that the Julian Calendar might have been affect during that period - and that is another Roman story, but still does not impact the Jewish calendar observances. I'll have to look it up again, later.
__________________
It makes no difference whether you study in the holy language, or in Arabic, or Aramaic [or in Greek or even in English]; it matters only whether it is done with understanding. - Moshe Maimonides.
), I agree with you that the trouble started when the Pharisees (probably from the stricter school of Shammai) demanded formal conversion into the Jewish community and adherence to the way the Pharisees interpreted it. You'll recall that Jesus referred to the Pharisees as the ones who occupied the seat of Moses, so they were the ruling authority. If you weren't obeying Torah their way, you weren't obeying it, according to them.
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