left upci yr ago and still messed up

[Jay]

There is no UPC bashing in me. It is just a very sad situation there.

[AreYouReady?]

And I grow weary of people accusing others of UPC bashing when they are clearly emotional over some traumatic experience in the church they loved. These people want clarity about what to do next. They want to know how to get past the hurt and move on living their life for Christ.

And yes, it is an excuse to leave the Church...but it is not an excuse to leave Christ. These are two distinctly separate situations.

Sometimes it is best to leave the church in order to cut off the root of bitterness that may develop. Bitterness will defile many and cause dissension. Best to leave.

I haven't read anybody "railing" against the organization. What I have read and what I posted myself is the experience they had, and the experience I had. If it comes across as "railing" to you, I can't help that.

The problem with your solution as to calling it a disagreement and move on is not always what happens. Many times the people from the church you left will make sure you get bashed at other churches so that they will not give you a warm welcome. It is they ...who cannot move on until they thoroughly bash the "defector".

You say that they are "human"...some of them seem to forget that they are just human also.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by ILG

For me it was never standards that were an issue, at least as far as following them and living them....it was the inconsistencies that bothered me and the inability or unwillingness of anyone to explain it.

The abuse I suffered had more to do with people's refusal to deal with issues that should have been dealt with. I guess standards were a part of that but largely it was much bigger issues than that.

It usually is.. many are more than willing to follow standards to please God and submit to leadership but its attitudes and spirits that hurt. With the right spirit even an ultra-conservative life is fun!

[Jay]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

It usually is.. many are more than willing to follow standards to please God and submit to leadership but its attitudes and spirits that hurt. With the right spirit even an ultra-conservative life is fun!

That is the truth!! I would not ever trade the raising that I had for the anything. However, there were some people's attitudes I could have lived without. But it is a greater joy to serve my Lord than worry about them.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

I'm not UPC, never have been.

I have three TVs in my home.

I play sports.

I go to the movies (not much anymore because of the economy, though).

I still grow weary of the attitude many people have towards the UPC. It's absolutely ridiculous. I'm very sure emotional hurt occurs in UPC, it happens in every church, because churches have people in them, and people aren't perfect. That's not an excuse to leave the church, the doctrine, or Christ. It's also not an excuse to bash the organization, especially if you left on your own accord because you had a disagreement. Call it what it is... a disagreement and move on. You don't have to rail against the organization, they are human, just like their defectors, they can be wrong and their defectors can be wrong.

You said it in your first statement - you've never been UPC. Whether people are railing against it or not, you really don't have room to pass judgment, since you've never walked a mile in their shoes.

The theme of this thread over and over has been that most of us left because of a disagreement over standards, not because someone has done us wrong.

What we're railing against is the attitude that we left because we were rebellious, backslidden, bitter, charismatic, non-submissive, proud, worldly, etc.....we're not railing against the organization, just some of the attitudes that are prevalent within any organization.

[The Lemon]

Wow..what a thread! I appreciate all the responses that I have read on here. I would agree with many on here as saying that Jesus really needs to stay the focal point. It also does not hurt to do some self analysis as well. We are all motivated by something, and there comes a time when you have to search your own heart and spirit for why you do or don't do something.

I can remember not long ago making a statement in prayer that I was unsure that I really wanted the Lord's direction...I said this because after contemplating my life over the last few years, I found little in the way of asking Jesus what He thought. That is just me of course, but the point is that it all begins and ends with relationship, not religion, religious rituals, traditions, or a do and don't list.

Now, don't get me wrong, I know that every assembly has a minimum standard for leadership - I know this may seem like an over simplified answer, but, if you choose not to comply, then you simply are not involved in any "position" in that assembly, at least in most cases. If it really is an issue beyond that, then you have a huge decision to pray about / make.

I have said this before in other threads...it is my strong opinion that the UPCI is not for everybody, same with WPF, or any other OP org. Everyone that "makes it", will not necessarily be in one of these organizations...it is absurd to think otherwise. We have to work out our own salvation..

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Wow..what a thread! I appreciate all the responses that I have read on here. I would agree with many on here as saying that Jesus really needs to stay the focal point. It also does not hurt to do some self analysis as well. We are all motivated by something, and there comes a time when you have to search your own heart and spirit for why you do or don't do something.

I can remember not long ago making a statement in prayer that I was unsure that I really wanted the Lord's direction...I said this because after contemplating my life over the last few years, I found little in the way of asking Jesus what He thought. That is just me of course, but the point is that it all begins and ends with relationship, not religion, religious rituals, traditions, or a do and don't list.

Now, don't get me wrong, I know that every assembly has a minimum standard for leadership - I know this may seem like an over simplified answer, but, if you choose not to comply, then you simply are not involved in any "position" in that assembly, at least in most cases. If it really is an issue beyond that, then you have a huge decision to pray about / make.

I have said this before in other threads...it is my strong opinion that the UPCI is not for everybody, same with WPF, or any other OP org. Everyone that "makes it", will not necessarily be in one of these organizations...it is absurd to think otherwise. We have to work out our own salvation..

Great post!

[J4Truth]

I don't post much, mostly I enjoy reading the comments and seeing through others eyes.

I'm not UPC, but my church have a standard. There's a common theme I see regarding the standards issue and for the life of me I can't seem to understand why? I can speculate but I have learned that even if your right in your reasoning or assessment of a situation, if it don't sound good put into words no one seems to agree.

Question, why do it seems to be the biggest problem people have with dress standards is the reason of hypocrites? I keep seeing people mention how someone obeyed the standards but they did this wrong or that wrong. They'll mention how someone gossiped or how some man obeyed the standards but molested his daughter. Or how someone don't wear make-up but they find other ways to get around it. It seems to be the main reason people even questioned the standards. They run into some Pharisaical hypocrites and then throw the standards into the trash.

Who said, preached, taught, told anyone that the standards is some litmus test of how holy someone is? That if they are obeying the standards then they are automatically holy? If I find a man that never committed adultery and judge others because of it, then later find out he was a secret serial killer I don't all of sudden conclude that I can now start committing adultery because it.

Now I don't want to get into a yes no standards debate, because whether they're right or wrong, why do people use hypocrites as a basis? A hypocrite can do one thing right and million things wrong, the one thing he did right will never turn into something that is wrong to do because he is a hypocrite.

Now, when you use the hypocrite reasoning for when you questioned standards or went against the standards you give the impression that maybe deep in you heart you long to get out and grabbed at any excuse to allow you some freedom. Now, I'm all for searching the scriptures and getting a deeper understanding but why do so many seem to mark the imperfect man instead of marking the perfect man.

It is the same attitude we see with sinners against the whole of Christendom. They see the hypocrites in and outside the pulpit. They make jokes about different churches and denominations. Then they conclude Christianity itself is wrong because of all the people that wear the title Christian but don't actually live anything like a true Christian should.

[AreYouReady?]

Perhaps standards is not the real problem. Perhaps it is just a symptom of the problem. You got a system that teaches standards are "holy". That standards are an outward manifestation of one's inward spiritual status. They use appearances as the fruit of the Spirit instead of what the fruits of the Spirit really are.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

(Galatians 5:22)

Perhaps when one is, in certain churches, pressured into taking up their "standards", when they see meanness and abuse come out in people who is supposedly considered to be "holy" inside because after all ... their outside reflects their inwards? Jesus had something to say about this type of practices.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

(Matthew 23:25)

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

(Matthew 23:27)


Maybe that is more the problem than the standards. Standards is an easy blame for both sides of the spectrum. Offenses come all the time. But offenses by those who represent the church causes people to re-examine what they have been taught in that church.

When people leave because of how they have been treated over the holiness standards, the pat answer is: "Oh, they did not want to live for God". or
"Oh, their attitudes are bad". They totally miss that they were a part of the problem. That they stifled and smothered people with their demands or shunnings.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by J4Truth

I don't post much, mostly I enjoy reading the comments and seeing through others eyes.

I'm not UPC, but my church have a standard. There's a common theme I see regarding the standards issue and for the life of me I can't seem to understand why? I can speculate but I have learned that even if your right in your reasoning or assessment of a situation, if it don't sound good put into words no one seems to agree.

Question, why do it seems to be the biggest problem people have with dress standards is the reason of hypocrites? I keep seeing people mention how someone obeyed the standards but they did this wrong or that wrong. They'll mention how someone gossiped or how some man obeyed the standards but molested his daughter. Or how someone don't wear make-up but they find other ways to get around it. It seems to be the main reason people even questioned the standards. They run into some Pharisaical hypocrites and then throw the standards into the trash.

Who said, preached, taught, told anyone that the standards is some litmus test of how holy someone is? That if they are obeying the standards then they are automatically holy? If I find a man that never committed adultery and judge others because of it, then later find out he was a secret serial killer I don't all of sudden conclude that I can now start committing adultery because it.

Now I don't want to get into a yes no standards debate, because whether they're right or wrong, why do people use hypocrites as a basis? A hypocrite can do one thing right and million things wrong, the one thing he did right will never turn into something that is wrong to do because he is a hypocrite.

Now, when you use the hypocrite reasoning for when you questioned standards or went against the standards you give the impression that maybe deep in you heart you long to get out and grabbed at any excuse to allow you some freedom. Now, I'm all for searching the scriptures and getting a deeper understanding but why do so many seem to mark the imperfect man instead of marking the perfect man.

It is the same attitude we see with sinners against the whole of Christendom. They see the hypocrites in and outside the pulpit. They make jokes about different churches and denominations. Then they conclude Christianity itself is wrong because of all the people that wear the title Christian but don't actually live anything like a true Christian should.

I guess I missed some posts or something, because I haven't seen anyone on this thread using hypocrites as a reason for leaving standards.......or, are you just making the point about certain ones who do?

I do agree with your reasoning, it's a very poor excuse to use if you're leaving....there are hypocrites everywhere, and if we used that excuse in other areas of our lives, we'd stop going to work, stop playing golf, stop doing pretty much everything we do, because someone, somewhere who is doing those things is being a hypocrite about something at this very moment.

However, I don't see that as being the theme of this thread...........