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WPF News Discussion of the WWPF meetings in Tulsa and related sidetracks.


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  #91  
Old 09-03-2008, 03:29 PM
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Jack Shephard Jack Shephard is offline
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Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
Well, I guess I feel the same about lights. Lol. if 100% is biting heads off bats and drinking their blood, then no, but I have certainly changed a lot from where I was to where I am.
Gotta love Ozzy Osbourne!

Nothing is wrong with lights, fog and affects. It is all for dramatic affect. Just like screaming ones head off when preaching or getting a box of shout detergent and preaching about "Shout it out!" just to get a response. To me it is all the same. Use it or don't, but don't try and push others down that down use it as if they are rank sinners or something. It is a sad day when something like lights and fog machines are dividing lines. Cause if ones argument is that bars have them, etc. then there is no reason why we need music cause bars have it, no carpet or wood flooring again bars have them. The best is don't have speakers and amp and musical equipment either--bars have those. LOL the lengths people go to call out others as sinners. What a joke!
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  #92  
Old 09-03-2008, 03:41 PM
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Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference

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Originally Posted by JTULLOCK View Post
Gotta love Ozzy Osbourne!

Nothing is wrong with lights, fog and affects. It is all for dramatic affect. Just like screaming ones head off when preaching or getting a box of shout detergent and preaching about "Shout it out!" just to get a response. To me it is all the same. Use it or don't, but don't try and push others down that down use it as if they are rank sinners or something. It is a sad day when something like lights and fog machines are dividing lines. Cause if ones argument is that bars have them, etc. then there is no reason why we need music cause bars have it, no carpet or wood flooring again bars have them. The best is don't have speakers and amp and musical equipment either--bars have those. LOL the lengths people go to call out others as sinners. What a joke!
In all respect JT. Calling convictions a joke is not cool. But its your right. I think sometimes it depends on if you were ever in the world or not, as to whether you have, or develop certain convictions (feelings) on things. Flashing lights remind me of haunted houses and the village people (YMCA). A whole lot of people have strong convictions against a light show/fog in a Church service. Those convictions will be preached. I would not call someone who uses these methods "bound for hell". But it is a strong conviction and we will continue to teach and preach, against the appearance of a bar room.
God bless.
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  #93  
Old 09-03-2008, 05:04 PM
Jeremy Jeremy is offline
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Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference

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Originally Posted by JTULLOCK View Post
Gotta love Ozzy Osbourne!

Nothing is wrong with lights, fog and affects. It is all for dramatic affect. Just like screaming ones head off when preaching or getting a box of shout detergent and preaching about "Shout it out!" just to get a response. To me it is all the same. Use it or don't, but don't try and push others down that down use it as if they are rank sinners or something. It is a sad day when something like lights and fog machines are dividing lines. Cause if ones argument is that bars have them, etc. then there is no reason why we need music cause bars have it, no carpet or wood flooring again bars have them. The best is don't have speakers and amp and musical equipment either--bars have those. LOL the lengths people go to call out others as sinners. What a joke!
I actually addressed your very argument in the post you did not quote. The reason I see it as being wrong is because you are manufacturing hype. Your argument about using illustrations does not fit. I have been in history class where we split into two and had a paper ball fight to relate to civil war, I have been in math classes where you do small construction projects to show applicable use of a mathematical principle, and I have been in a science class where we shined a laser light on mirrors to display the properties of rays of light. Using visual or interactive lesson aids is not at all the same as the psychological manipulation of teenagers with lights and smoke. At least, not in my opinion. I doubt I could argue anyone who thinks it's cool into seeing my point of view, I just hope I can express my view in such a way to at least make it understandable.

It is not a fear of progression that makes them seem like a bad thing to people like me. It is a feeling of regression, and a sense of degradation. I simply don't feel like visual effects in worship are a step forward. I see it as an attempt to replicate something it can never match (that many came out of), and a weakening of the potential for the moving of the Spirit of God.
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  #94  
Old 09-03-2008, 06:01 PM
RandyWayne RandyWayne is offline
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Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge View Post
In all respect JT. Calling convictions a joke is not cool. But its your right. I think sometimes it depends on if you were ever in the world or not, as to whether you have, or develop certain convictions (feelings) on things. Flashing lights remind me of haunted houses and the village people (YMCA). A whole lot of people have strong convictions against a light show/fog in a Church service. Those convictions will be preached. I would not call someone who uses these methods "bound for hell". But it is a strong conviction and we will continue to teach and preach, against the appearance of a bar room.
God bless.
I think the whole premise of not doing something because it is too much like something else is always a shaky one to which to develop a doctrine -a conviction perhaps, but not a "church rule". I know your talking specifically about convictions, but then you also mention is being preached, which thrusts it into the category of church rule.

Again, I do not like flashing lights. I think the argument that it is too much like the "world" (or haunted houses or the Village People) is a red herring which takes attention away from the REAL reason they should not be used: epilepsy. There are MANY people who will go into a seizure at the drop of a hat in the presence of any strobe light, and even lights that flash with ANY rhythm. And perhaps the 2nd biggest reason I have against them is that they are just plain annoying.

When I DJed, I did not use any lights that flashed, or spinning mirrored balls (I DID toy with a fog machine, but it set off too many fire alarms in dance halls). My service was called Tough of Class! and that is exact what I went for. Subdued lighting, high quality sound, shiny black suit and tie on myself, and no raunchy music (like "strokin" or "Don't want no short shrot....", "Closer" by Nine Inch Nails...... you get the idea).

Here is a picture of my set up at a ballroom event.
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  #95  
Old 09-03-2008, 06:17 PM
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Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWayne View Post
I think the whole premise of not doing something because it is too much like something else is always a shaky one to which to develop a doctrine -a conviction perhaps, but not a "church rule". I know your talking specifically about convictions, but then you also mention is being preached, which thrusts it into the category of church rule.

Again, I do not like flashing lights. I think the argument that it is too much like the "world" (or haunted houses or the Village People) is a red herring which takes attention away from the REAL reason they should not be used: epilepsy. There are MANY people who will go into a seizure at the drop of a hat in the presence of any strobe light, and even lights that flash with ANY rhythm. And perhaps the 2nd biggest reason I have against them is that they are just plain annoying.

When I DJed, I did not use any lights that flashed, or spinning mirrored balls (I DID toy with a fog machine, but it set off too many fire alarms in dance halls). My service was called Tough of Class! and that is exact what I went for. Subdued lighting, high quality sound, shiny black suit and tie on myself, and no raunchy music (like "strokin" or "Don't want no short shrot....", "Closer" by Nine Inch Nails...... you get the idea).

Here is a picture of my set up at a ballroom event.
Nice set up.
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  #96  
Old 09-03-2008, 06:58 PM
RandyWayne RandyWayne is offline
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Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge View Post
Nice set up.
Thanks.

As you can see my only lighting was the purple rope light surrounding the stage and two small black lights underneath the table.

(And the system sounded incredible!)
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  #97  
Old 09-04-2008, 05:13 AM
TCSQ TCSQ is offline
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Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference

[QUOTE=RandyWayne;581555]I think the whole premise of not doing something because it is too much like something else is always a shaky one to which to develop a doctrine -a conviction perhaps, but not a "church rule". I know your talking specifically about convictions, but then you also mention is being preached, which thrusts it into the category of church rule.




***************************MY REPLY*************************

(and by the way, I used the quote thing, what am I doing wrong because it NEVER seems to make the boxed quote that I see the rest of you coming up with.) ANYWAY.....

You know Randy you are so right...and you are also kind of wrong.


I think its a shame that for Reasons of Biblical understanding that we by and large have not experienced living under the law of Moses at least for a season. It's a real eye opener to understanding the principles of the New Covenant. The Law was a shadow of things to come and not the actual object (s) itself.

But to scrap it as though it has no bearing on the New is ridiculous as the New is typified in the Old and a holistic view of the Word of God gives us a great advantage as opposed to just a one eyed vision ability (when you only see through one eye you lose something very important...DEPTH PERCEPTION)

There is a grossly foreign (to us) concept revealed in the Law that is so beautifully realized in the New Testament, and because most of us the overwhelmingly VAST majority of us have NEVER been exposed to this concept or even heard of it , it colours and distorts our understanding of the principle (s) at work in the New.



It is the concept of being KOSHER. Ask anyone what THAT means and they will tell you that it has something to do with hot dogs or pickles and that is pretty much the extent of most peoples thinking. Ask a few and they will say, oh that has to do with the dietary laws of the Jews ..they don't eat Pork"


But Randy that whole concept is so vital to us today, and it is going right over the head of I would say almost everybody in the New Testament Church of 2008.

That of course being because almost everybody in the New Testament Church of 2008 is of gentile background.


But the church was ordained to be a BODY of Jews and Gentiles baptized into the same body, bringing BOTH of their positive insights and experiences into a common shared insight into and experience with God. Where are our Jewish Apostolics of today? I would be willing to garauntee you that virtually all of us could count the Jewish Apostolics that WE know on our fingers!

The whole deal of keeping Kosher goes WAY beyond Not eating pork, catfish, or rabbit! Those were the SHADOW of things to come NOT the very thing itself! They really speak to something WAY past ***FOOD****!!!! (Thats why I hate to admit it but when you see these guys going on about the need to go avoid eating catfish and rabbit because it is not Kosher cracks me up, they are SO NOT GETTING GODS POINT! But God love em)

But to stay with MY thought here....The whole system of keeping "KOSHER" is amazing. Basically what Kosher means is that this is something within the perameters set by the word of God and acceptable in light of the word of GOD.

The OPPOSITE... what is usually translated as "UNCLEAN" in the Old Testament is a word TRAIF which means Torn or Ripped.

So you have Kosher...Clean Holy inside the boundaries of the word of God
and Traif ...Ripped, Torn , OUTSIDE the boundaries of the word of God.

And if it was just left there you would have the general Apostolic mind set in a nutshell. No Middle Ground on anything!

But there is a THIRD classification for so many things. In the law something can be NOT KOSHER and yet NOT TRAIF either! That third classification is called PAREVE. Neutral.... neither this OR that.

For instance in the law beef is Kosher, Pork is Traif , but a potato is NEITHER Kosher OR Traif it is just a potato, Pareve, neutral.

And as things even in the food community so to speak keep evolving, new foods discovered and developed it causes the Law Keeping community to keep having to take counsel together on these newly introduced things to determine IN LIGHT OF THE PRINCIPLES DELIVERED TO THEM FROM GOD..is this Kosher or is this Traif or is it PAREVE? Its not just rules made on whim or personal conviction, it goes way beyond that, it is the counsel of EXPERIENCED LEARNED MEN who counsel TOGETHER on these things and reach a judicial decision. The ability to adjudicate in the Apostolic Church is certainly there (The binding and loosing power of adjudication given to the diisciples by Jesus himself). It is simply not used or not used very well at best.

Now that brings us to the whole issue bantered back and forth about here. Does anyone seriously believe that the real issue is LIGHTS? I mean this is not about a debate raging over the pros and cons of conventional traditional light bulbs and the new neon lighting. This is TIED to a whole area of spiritual influence and atmosphere setting power that many EXPERIENCED men of GOD are detecting and whose voice is being marginalized to a large extent by those without that experience who want what they want! Hence the tantrum factor where you see charges of WITCHCRAFT being hurled around by those who dont like any thinking on the subject that differs from their own.

To kind of touch on YOUR comment let me run this by you.


I was minister for several years at a very large predominantly black Apostolic church. We had a serious SERIOUS problem with our young people. It had many many causes BUT the common denominator of THIS problem was THIS:

The two major gangs in the area The Bloods and the Crips had "Colours" The Bloods wore RED the Crips wore BLUE. It was how you marked what gang you gave allegiance to even though you may not actually have joined it.

The young people in the church wanting so hard to be COOL immediately began wearing the colours of the gang that they admired (or feared).

All of a sudden RED Jackets, sweaters, jogging suits and BLUE Jackets Sweaters and jogging suits started becoming the clothing of choice for virtually ALL of our young people.

Bishop was completely at a loss. It certainly was not the colours blue and red that troubled him but what he CORRECTLY saw as the spiritual force in back of them slowly insinuating itself into their lives through the simple wearing of COLOURS. Most of the kids were NOT involved in the gang life at all. (Yet , THAT came later) BUT they were attempting in their immature way to be RELEVANT in their peer group/ community and it was the WRONG kind of relevance.

Bishop after things really got out of hand finally stood up one sunday Morning and laid down the LAW.
" THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY MORE OF THESE COLOURS! NOT IN CHURCH, NOT ON THE STREET! OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ARE ***NOT**** GOING TO BE WALKING AROUND LOOKING LIKE THE BLOODS AND THE CRIPS! NO MORE BLUE JACKETS NO MORE RED JACKETS, THAT'S IT AINT NO MORE COLOURS!"

Now of course even Bishop would have told you there was nothing morally right OR wrong with the colour blue or the colour red, but what it was tied to WAS DEADLY and he did NOT want that spirit slowly wafting in and getting ahold of the young people. Many laughed at him and did not heed his SAGE ADVICE based on the leading of the spirit of God and good old common sense! (' I LOVE BISHOP BUT HE'S OLD AND HE DONT *****UNDERSTAND!*****)

They paid for it dearly in the long run even members of his own immediate family who rebelled against that kind of "control" and ended up seeing their own children shot to death in broad daylight.

So to say that there is no ablity at various times to stand up and take an issue and define it in terms of the word of God is actually a duty we all must recognize. That is why in the MULTITUDE of counsel there is safety.

Any way this is evidently my newest book. It probably wont be read either . Oh well!
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  #98  
Old 09-04-2008, 06:11 AM
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Tim Rutledge Tim Rutledge is offline
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Smile Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference

[QUOTE=TCSQ;581799]
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWayne View Post
I think the whole premise of not doing something because it is too much like something else is always a shaky one to which to develop a doctrine -a conviction perhaps, but not a "church rule". I know your talking specifically about convictions, but then you also mention is being preached, which thrusts it into the category of church rule.




***************************MY REPLY*************************

(and by the way, I used the quote thing, what am I doing wrong because it NEVER seems to make the boxed quote that I see the rest of you coming up with.) ANYWAY.....

You know Randy you are so right...and you are also kind of wrong.


I think its a shame that for Reasons of Biblical understanding that we by and large have not experienced living under the law of Moses at least for a season. It's a real eye opener to understanding the principles of the New Covenant. The Law was a shadow of things to come and not the actual object (s) itself.

But to scrap it as though it has no bearing on the New is ridiculous as the New is typified in the Old and a holistic view of the Word of God gives us a great advantage as opposed to just a one eyed vision ability (when you only see through one eye you lose something very important...DEPTH PERCEPTION)

There is a grossly foreign (to us) concept revealed in the Law that is so beautifully realized in the New Testament, and because most of us the overwhelmingly VAST majority of us have NEVER been exposed to this concept or even heard of it , it colours and distorts our understanding of the principle (s) at work in the New.



It is the concept of being KOSHER. Ask anyone what THAT means and they will tell you that it has something to do with hot dogs or pickles and that is pretty much the extent of most peoples thinking. Ask a few and they will say, oh that has to do with the dietary laws of the Jews ..they don't eat Pork"


But Randy that whole concept is so vital to us today, and it is going right over the head of I would say almost everybody in the New Testament Church of 2008.

That of course being because almost everybody in the New Testament Church of 2008 is of gentile background.


But the church was ordained to be a BODY of Jews and Gentiles baptized into the same body, bringing BOTH of their positive insights and experiences into a common shared insight into and experience with God. Where are our Jewish Apostolics of today? I would be willing to garauntee you that virtually all of us could count the Jewish Apostolics that WE know on our fingers!

The whole deal of keeping Kosher goes WAY beyond Not eating pork, catfish, or rabbit! Those were the SHADOW of things to come NOT the very thing itself! They really speak to something WAY past ***FOOD****!!!! (Thats why I hate to admit it but when you see these guys going on about the need to go avoid eating catfish and rabbit because it is not Kosher cracks me up, they are SO NOT GETTING GODS POINT! But God love em)

But to stay with MY thought here....The whole system of keeping "KOSHER" is amazing. Basically what Kosher means is that this is something within the perameters set by the word of God and acceptable in light of the word of GOD.

The OPPOSITE... what is usually translated as "UNCLEAN" in the Old Testament is a word TRAIF which means Torn or Ripped.

So you have Kosher...Clean Holy inside the boundaries of the word of God
and Traif ...Ripped, Torn , OUTSIDE the boundaries of the word of God.

And if it was just left there you would have the general Apostolic mind set in a nutshell. No Middle Ground on anything!

But there is a THIRD classification for so many things. In the law something can be NOT KOSHER and yet NOT TRAIF either! That third classification is called PAREVE. Neutral.... neither this OR that.

For instance in the law beef is Kosher, Pork is Traif , but a potato is NEITHER Kosher OR Traif it is just a potato, Pareve, neutral.

And as things even in the food community so to speak keep evolving, new foods discovered and developed it causes the Law Keeping community to keep having to take counsel together on these newly introduced things to determine IN LIGHT OF THE PRINCIPLES DELIVERED TO THEM FROM GOD..is this Kosher or is this Traif or is it PAREVE? Its not just rules made on whim or personal conviction, it goes way beyond that, it is the counsel of EXPERIENCED LEARNED MEN who counsel TOGETHER on these things and reach a judicial decision. The ability to adjudicate in the Apostolic Church is certainly there (The binding and loosing power of adjudication given to the diisciples by Jesus himself). It is simply not used or not used very well at best.

Now that brings us to the whole issue bantered back and forth about here. Does anyone seriously believe that the real issue is LIGHTS? I mean this is not about a debate raging over the pros and cons of conventional traditional light bulbs and the new neon lighting. This is TIED to a whole area of spiritual influence and atmosphere setting power that many EXPERIENCED men of GOD are detecting and whose voice is being marginalized to a large extent by those without that experience who want what they want! Hence the tantrum factor where you see charges of WITCHCRAFT being hurled around by those who dont like any thinking on the subject that differs from their own.

To kind of touch on YOUR comment let me run this by you.


I was minister for several years at a very large predominantly black Apostolic church. We had a serious SERIOUS problem with our young people. It had many many causes BUT the common denominator of THIS problem was THIS:

The two major gangs in the area The Bloods and the Crips had "Colours" The Bloods wore RED the Crips wore BLUE. It was how you marked what gang you gave allegiance to even though you may not actually have joined it.

The young people in the church wanting so hard to be COOL immediately began wearing the colours of the gang that they admired (or feared).

All of a sudden RED Jackets, sweaters, jogging suits and BLUE Jackets Sweaters and jogging suits started becoming the clothing of choice for virtually ALL of our young people.

Bishop was completely at a loss. It certainly was not the colours blue and red that troubled him but what he CORRECTLY saw as the spiritual force in back of them slowly insinuating itself into their lives through the simple wearing of COLOURS. Most of the kids were NOT involved in the gang life at all. (Yet , THAT came later) BUT they were attempting in their immature way to be RELEVANT in their peer group/ community and it was the WRONG kind of relevance.

Bishop after things really got out of hand finally stood up one sunday Morning and laid down the LAW.
" THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY MORE OF THESE COLOURS! NOT IN CHURCH, NOT ON THE STREET! OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ARE ***NOT**** GOING TO BE WALKING AROUND LOOKING LIKE THE BLOODS AND THE CRIPS! NO MORE BLUE JACKETS NO MORE RED JACKETS, THAT'S IT AINT NO MORE COLOURS!"

Now of course even Bishop would have told you there was nothing morally right OR wrong with the colour blue or the colour red, but what it was tied to WAS DEADLY and he did NOT want that spirit slowly wafting in and getting ahold of the young people. Many laughed at him and did not heed his SAGE ADVICE based on the leading of the spirit of God and good old common sense! (' I LOVE BISHOP BUT HE'S OLD AND HE DONT *****UNDERSTAND!*****)

They paid for it dearly in the long run even members of his own immediate family who rebelled against that kind of "control" and ended up seeing their own children shot to death in broad daylight.

So to say that there is no ablity at various times to stand up and take an issue and define it in terms of the word of God is actually a duty we all must recognize. That is why in the MULTITUDE of counsel there is safety.

Any way this is evidently my newest book. It probably wont be read either . Oh well!

Thank you TCSQ. Good post.
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  #99  
Old 09-04-2008, 08:25 PM
RandyWayne RandyWayne is offline
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Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference

I understand the point your making completely, and agree with it for the most part. For instance a pastor banning blue and red from his specific church because of the specific issues you mentioned is understandable (popular gang colors in the neighborhood) and relevant to that church in that situation.
Such would be the case to bring up the concept of flashing lights (which I *hate* by the way) and fog as they occur in a church which may be situated in a section of town heavily populated by bars and night clubs. Perhaps the leadership would decide that they need to take a specific stand against looking too much like all the other businesses which are on the same block.

But..... barring these sort of situations I still stand by my comment about making church policy based on something "looking too much like something else" is a VERY dangerous one and should not be made lightly, if at all. One problem with such rules is that they more often than not don't stop with only one step. Meaning, people being people more often than not keep adding to such rules: I won't do this because it is too much like this WHICH is too much like that! The concept of not doing something because it is too much like something else is a very shaky foundation which at best works for only one generation of "like" and even then in only specific situations like the one mentioned in your post about the colors blue and red.

Now.... What would happen if a church in an area of the country with little to no gang activity suddenly banned the colors red and blue because of what they read in your post? "If it is relevant for THAT pastor then surely it is relevant to ME!"?
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  #100  
Old 09-05-2008, 04:41 AM
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tv1a tv1a is offline
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Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference

Legalism is witchcraft. How would one explain the strong terms Paul used in Galatians 3? Legalism is a spell. Paul builds a great case against subjective standards. Then hammers the point home when asking who has bewitched you. IF one doesn't believe legalism is witchcraft. Either they haven't taken studied it out, or they have friends whom they don't want to offend.
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