Absent from the body?

[Esaias]

Brother Blume, I am moving our discussion of this subject from the other thread as it was off topic and the other thread had already been hijacked, so...

It began with this:

Originally Posted by mfblume

I disagree. Our BODIES will be spiritual ones in the resurrection. The BODY not the spirit, is the subject of 1 Cor 15. 2 Cor 5 says we will be without bodies and naked when we go to be with the Lord upon absence from the body. Hence, a resurrection clothes us with a temple made from heaven.

That which is from the earth is not the SOUL, but the BODY. Christ's earthly body was changed and made heavenly in His resurrection. And Phil 3:21 says our body will likewise be fashioned and changed as His was. Man is not meant to remain in heaven forever, despite the hymn book theology going around the last century or so.

Man was created to have dominion in the earth, and a restoration of what Adam lost is not dying and going to heaven forever. Heaven is temporal for bodiless saints upon death. But the meek shall inherit the earth.

Psa 115:16 KJV The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

To which I said this:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Adam became a soul when his flesh body was embued with spirit from God. "And Adam became a living soul". So then a soul is the combination of a flesh body with spirit (breath or ruach or pneuma of life). Adam WAS a soul, not merely a being who 'possessed a soul'.

One's soul is one's person, one's life, one's existence as a living being. Souls are resurrected, not merely bodies, for PEOPLE are resurrected (not just their bodies).

Nobody goes to heaven automatically. AFTER the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus, Peter declared that David is 'not ascended into heaven' but rather Jesus Christ was. Jesus Christ is the only human being in heaven right now.

Paul taught that we receive immortality at the resurrection. Therefore we are not immortal until then. We can say we have eternal life now, but only because we are set aside for the resurrection unto life at the coming of the Lord. What we have is an earnest until the purchased possession is actually redeemed in fact in the resurrection. Therefore, upon death the soul does not leave the body and fly away up to heaven. The Bible NEVER SAYS THAT. What it DOES say is that upon death the flesh body of man returns to the earth/dust from which it came, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Since body and spirit are separated at death, there is no living soul during that time. Only in the resurrection, when the dead are raised to life, when spirit and soul are reunited, can such a thing be possible.

The Bible says the dead know nothing, they do not praise God, they have nothing to do with anything going on here on earth, they 'sleep'. Those who die in Christ are said to 'sleep in Jesus'. If one is conscious up in heaven as a bodiless spirit then the term 'sleep' has no genuine application, for that is not at all like sleep.

As for being 'naked' upon death, Paul said this:

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The goal of the apostolic faith in the first century was NOT to be unclothed, but to be clothed upon that mortality might be swallowed up of life. That is a clear reference to the resurrection. The hope of the first Christians was resurrection, not dying and flying away to heaven. Paul does not explicitly state that being dead equals being naked. This is an important point.

Paul says that being clothed (upon in resurrection) is to prevent being FOUND naked. Notice the following:

Rev_3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Paul is saying we earnestly desire ('groan') to be clothed upon (resurrected) IF SO BE THAT we do not appear 'naked'. The nakedness then is referring to not having our sins covered.

Rev_7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And,

Rev_19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

So Paul is saying their hope was to attain to the resurrection of LIFE, not being found 'naked' but clothed - not merely with a resurrected body but clothed in righteousness.

He refers to a disembodied state NOT as 'naked' but as 'unclothed'. The fact the two terms are used in their specific contexts indicates Paul is making a theological distinction between the two concepts of on the one hand being 'naked' as to righteousness or sin, and on the other hand of being clothed as to resurrection bodies. '...IF SO BE that being clothed we shall not be found naked...'

The doctrine that people go to heaven immediately upon death PRIOR to the resurrection makes the resurrection itself superfluous. If you die and go to heaven, why would you WANT to have a body again and be on the earth? Your final destination would be LESS GLORIOUS and LESS BEATIFIC than the intermediate state.

Furthermore, immortality is given at resurrection. That is when we become immortal. To be immortal PRIOR to the resurrection, in heaven, is to receive the final reward BEFORE THE JUDGMENT DAY, which makes the Judgment Day either superfluous or ridiculous. In fact, it seems a slight variation of SDA doctrine who maintain the Day of Judgment is NOT when any decisions are made regarding final destinies, but simply when the already decreed decisions are carried out. And I find that concept utterly absent from the Bible (although it can be found all over Ms. White's writings...)

Now let's look at this:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Notice the bolded part. Does this mean that the apostolic believers were WILLING to be 'absent from the body'? How can be when he just said the following:

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

If verse 8 means Paul was desiring to be 'absent from the body', and if absent from the body means in a disembodied state, then he flatly contradicted what he previously said just 4 verses earlier!

Therefore, it cannot mean THAT. Notice he did not say 'absent from our bodies' (plural), but WE (plural) are willing rather to be absent from THE BODY (singular). That might be a big clue as to what he is trying to get across to us...

Brother Blume responded that I was incorrect, to which I said he was incorrect, to which he said he would post an exegesis of the context to demonstrate his position. That exegesis is in two parts and I will reproduce it in whole in the next post, followed by my response.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Brother Blume, I am moving our discussion of this subject from the other thread as it was off topic and the other thread had already been hijacked, so...

It began with this:



To which I said this:



Brother Blume responded that I was incorrect, to which I said he was incorrect, to which he said he would post an exegesis of the context to demonstrate his position. That exegesis is in two parts and I will reproduce it in whole in the next post, followed by my response.

We both know two specific hijackers. So don't be surprised they hijack this thread as well.

[Esaias]

Part 1:

Originally Posted by mfblume

2 Corinthians 5:1-11 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Paul began by speaking of our bodies. He used the singular tense. The earthly house is the body made of the earth. And he called it a tabernacle since it is temporal, and not a HOUSE or TEMPLE that is more permanent, simply because our bodies are mortal. The house is made by God, the immortal body we shall gain in resurrection. This wording is similar to 1 Cor 15 where our resurrected bodies will be immortal and like the body of the Lord’s upon His resurrection that was spiritual.

I always remind folks spiritual things are not always non-physical as most assume. Spiritual is contrasted from nature, not from physical. Many supernatural things were very physical. 1 Cor 10 referred to very physical spiritual food and drink the Israelites enjoyed in the wilderness.

Anyway, the reason it’s called a tabernacle or house is because THE SOUL AND SPIRIT inhabit it. Souls are not meant to remain in earthly tents like our natural bodies.

Dissolved implies the earthly body shall decay in the grave, contrary to the spiritual body that is immortal and not subject to decay.

Jesus was foretold to not have his body suffer corruption. So, the body was raised and was very physical. This proves the body that came from the grave could not decay or fade away. It is a spiritual body because nature does not animate nor empower it. It is animated and empowered by supernatural life, not natural.

We read it’s not made by hands in a poetic sense of comparing what man makes to things that fail and cannot last forever. It not only abides in the natural realm as immortal when changed and made so by God in resurrection, but it can enter the heavenly realm obviously as Jesus’ body did in His ascension. Angels abide there, and we know they have bodies. We will be able to enter they and enter earth as well.

(2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

The first clause mentions how IN THIS we groan. That is referring to our present mortal bodies that cause us pain and suffering due to their mortality. THIS mortal body makes us cry out and long for a body that is not subject to such things like sickness and mostly death.

Then Paul used the idea of CLOTHING by saying the souls that formerly inhabited the tent of mortal body can also be considered to be naked and requiring clothing of a new more perfect body. This natural body is like a garment that can be put off.

Man is not complete without a body. And because this mortal one makes us groan, and causes us to long for something better, we want a body that is immortal. We would not want such a thing if we were never meant to be immortal. But we lost that giving cause for us to want it again.

It’s a house from heaven in the same sense Jesus’ resurrected body is said to be from heaven, though clearly physical. This is not referring to the body with which he was born as advocates of divine flesh say it is. It is His resurrected body.

The idea is also seen that Paul longed for this to occur while he was still alive, for only in that sense could a person refer to changing bodies as though changing clothing.

(3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

He continues the idea of the body thought of as clothing. When resurrection takes place we will not be without a permanent body. So, far the BODY refers solely to the human body as I claim your reference to being absent from the body breaks that continuity when you claim that is not the human body. You said it was singular tense, but so was tabernacle and house, and they obviously refer to the human body in the states of mortal and immortal. So that proves the singular tense in your argument does not work to say the body from which we become absent is not the human body.

(4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The idea of the new body being like clothing, as well as a permanent temple, is continued.

Again, tabernacle is singular. It’s like speaking of our bodies using a singular tense in a discussion as follows: “The human body is not intended to be eternal in its current stated…” That uses the singular tense and is a perfectly sound manner of speaking in referring to the human body.

Mortality is swallowed up of life just as Paul stated in 1 Cor 15, where he also spoke of the human body being changed, not exchanged as if we drop and abandon the current body without it being altered into a new one like Jesus’ body was in His resurrection. We shall experience just what He did.

1 Corinthians 15:52-54 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Back to 1 Cor 5:

(5) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

He said God intends us to have an immortal body as Her did Adam to begin with. It’s the original plan and it’s not abandoned. This is the same kind of statement we find also in 1 Cor 15 again. There Paul said bodies are given by God to things according to their purpose. Our bodies must be changed and made immortal so that we adapt to the existences He planned for us to experience.

That’s why the Holy Ghost baptism is called an earnest. It’s a downpayment for what we shall get later, and this later element is the immortal body and existence that can enter the heavenlies realms like angels pass between earth and heaven.

The Holy Ghost baptism is actually a guarantee we shall live eternally. And that requires a new body.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Paul’s confidence derives from the fact that the Holy Ghost is an earnest and guarantee of an eternal existence. And he says the body in which we are at home, that is also the same tabernacle that he started to call clothing, is the human mortal body. This proves your idea is wrong about this verse. The same HOME of the body is repeated from having been first mentioned in the first verse about the human body. It’s a tent or tabernacle, but nevertheless a HOME for the soul. So, the idea is that while we remain at home in a tabernacle that is temporal, we are simply absent from the Lord.

continued..

[Esaias]

Part 2:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Paul also brought the most recent verses into this verse, along with the home of the soul in verse 1. Because we are guaranteed an eternal existence by virtue of the Holy Ghost being an earnest, giving us confidence, since we are not in immortal bodies yet we know existence in them means absence from the Lord. We are only with the Lord when resurrection occurs.

1 Thess 4 mentions this note, that we are only with the Lord after the resurrection when we are forever with Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

For those who claim we are already with the Lord because we’re saved, Paul knew the Lord before He wrote 1 Thessalonians 4, and yet he still said we would LATER ever be with the Lord, indicating the sense of being with the Lord was not in effect when he wrote that. Yes, we are spiritually with Christ, but the reason Paul said we are not in 1 Thess 4 and this verse in 2 Cor 5 is the fact that he is speaking in body as opposed to in spirit. We are not with Him in Body. Only in spirit now. But we shall be with him in body.

(7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )

This little sentence is a vital one! We walk not by sight because we cannot see the Lord physically. He physically left and He shall most physically return. And it is not a walk by sight when you cannot physically see. In this it’s inability to see the Lord because we are not with Him physically. It takes faith to know we are walking with Him spiritually but not faith to know we walk with Him physically.

This proves we shall indeed physically see him. He stated that we are absent from the Lord while the soul is in this mortal tent, to contrast the fact that death ushers the soul, the real us, into the physical presence of Christ’s immortal body. The soul leaves the body at death. It then becomes naked, but at least free of the cause of groaning which is the burdensome mortality of the natural body. It’s a relief from the groaning, but we still seek to be clothed upon with a new body. We then become absent from any human body for a time before the resurrection.

(8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

He has the same confidence that there is an eternal existence, again by virtue of the Holy Ghost being a downpayment and guarantee, as he does in there being an absence from this mortal body so we can be present with the Lord. He would rather be free of the groaning in a mortal tabernacle than be clothed with a mortal clothing. But of course the greater hope is not only freedom from the mortal body at death, but also clothed upon by an immortal house. The connection of a RATHER of a desire is connected to the GROANING in verse in in a mortal body. This proves the absence from the body is from the physical human body that is mortal.

(9) Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

This touches upon 1 Cor 15’s note of resurrection that says some shall have already died when the resurrection occurs, having left their bodies to be with the Lord in Heaven in soul alone, and some will still be alive. Those of us who are alive when the Lord comes and when we receive a new body that is the old one changed, must be accepted of Him at that time that we are NOT absent of body. In other words, if we are still clothed upon in mortal flesh when Jesus comes, we better be accepted of Him in that state.

This also proves the absence from body is absence from the human mortal body. It connects us to 1 Cor 15 which is obviously speaking about human bodies in being alive or dead when Jesus comes.

And those absent from the body likewise better be accepted of Him. So, Paul’s statement of being accepted of Him whether absent fromn the body or not absent from the body perfectly shows the same note in 1 Cor 15 about Jesus coming when some have died but others are still alive. ALL are changed, though not all are dead and absent from the body when that occurs.

We must all be accepted of Him when he comes, because the second coming of the Lord takes us to the white throne judgment!

(10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (11) Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

This proves I was correct in saying the resurrection takes all, who were both dead in body and living in body, to the white throne.

[Esaias]

Now, I read your posts several times. I think I need to read them a third time, because I am still unsure of what you are saying in some regards. I think you make some contradictory statements. At some points I read what you have stated and I think, "Yes, amen and amen!" and then I read some other statements and I think, "Hey, wait a minute, I thought he said...?"

So I would like some clarification of your position, if you could. I know that sometimes we type things that do not accurately reflect what was in our mind to be conveyed, but somehow it comes out all weird or even the opposite to what we intended. It has happened to me, I am sure it has happened to others, perhaps it has happened here?

On the one hand, you said the following:

"The Holy Ghost baptism is actually a guarantee we shall live eternally. And that requires a new body." and "Paul’s confidence derives from the fact that the Holy Ghost is an earnest and guarantee of an eternal existence."

But then you also said the following:

"... death ushers the soul, the real us, into the physical presence of Christ’s immortal body."

"...some shall have already died when the resurrection occurs, having left their bodies to be with the Lord in Heaven in soul alone..."

And you also said the following:

"...we are only with the Lord after the resurrection when we are forever with Him."

"We are only with the Lord when resurrection occurs. "

"And because this mortal one makes us groan, and causes us to long for something better, we want a body that is immortal. We would not want such a thing if we were never meant to be immortal."

These appear to be contradictory (or at least contrary) statements. On the one hand, we have no eternal existence apart from the resurrection, we desire immortality (as if we are not currently immortal), we are apart from the Lord until the resurrection, we cannot 'be with the Lord" until the resurrection, etc. And yet, on the other hand, we go to be with the Lord at death prior to the resurrection, we exist and live whether we have a body or not, etc.

So these seem to be contradictory to me. I am not going to attempt to reconcile them, as I do not want to misrepresent your position. Can you please clarify those statements as they relate to one another?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Now, I read your posts several times. I think I need to read them a third time, because I am still unsure of what you are saying in some regards. I think you make some contradictory statements. At some points I read what you have stated and I think, "Yes, amen and amen!" and then I read some other statements and I think, "Hey, wait a minute, I thought he said...?"

So I would like some clarification of your position, if you could. I know that sometimes we type things that do not accurately reflect what was in our mind to be conveyed, but somehow it comes out all weird or even the opposite to what we intended. It has happened to me, I am sure it has happened to others, perhaps it has happened here?

On the one hand, you said the following:

"The Holy Ghost baptism is actually a guarantee we shall live eternally. And that requires a new body." and "Paul’s confidence derives from the fact that the Holy Ghost is an earnest and guarantee of an eternal existence."

But then you also said the following:

"... death ushers the soul, the real us, into the physical presence of Christ’s immortal body."

"...some shall have already died when the resurrection occurs, having left their bodies to be with the Lord in Heaven in soul alone..."

And you also said the following:

"...we are only with the Lord after the resurrection when we are forever with Him."

"We are only with the Lord when resurrection occurs. "

"And because this mortal one makes us groan, and causes us to long for something better, we want a body that is immortal. We would not want such a thing if we were never meant to be immortal."

These appear to be contradictory (or at least contrary) statements. On the one hand, we have no eternal existence apart from the resurrection, we desire immortality (as if we are not currently immortal), we are apart from the Lord until the resurrection, we cannot 'be with the Lord" until the resurrection, etc. And yet, on the other hand, we go to be with the Lord at death prior to the resurrection, we exist and live whether we have a body or not, etc.

So these seem to be contradictory to me. I am not going to attempt to reconcile them, as I do not want to misrepresent your position. Can you please clarify those statements as they relate to one another?

Yes, I saw I needed to add more so I gave another post which you did not post here.

Let me get it.

[mfblume]

Here is that other post:

I should add we're with the Lord at resurrection or death, whichever comes first. Addendum to my notes.

[mfblume]

So I can clarify from that point on ward. Ask away!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yes, I saw I needed to add more so I gave another post which you did not post here.

Let me get it.

What? I missed something? Me genoito!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Here is that other post:

I should add we're with the Lord at resurrection or death, whichever comes first. Addendum to my notes.

Hmm. So what did you mean when you said we are only with the Lord after resurrection occurs?

Not trying to harp on this, just wanting to make sure I know what you are saying here.

Also, you had mentioned the Spirit is a guarantee of an eternal existence. This implies that without the Spirit we will have no eternal existence. Are you meaning only that we would have no eternal existence in a physical (resurrected, not "natural" or mortal) body? OR that we would have no eternal existence at all, as persons, apart from the resurrection unto life?