Honest and sincere question here (figured I should put that in there since I have a reputation of being silly -- and rebellious):
Don't you think it's a telling sign when so many PK's all have the same concept of both pastors and saints? I mean, isn't that pointing to a fault somewhere? And I'm not saying that, as PK's, we should be given a pass and left out of the equation -- but, in the end, the equation, more times than necessary, points to having a problem in the system as a whole. Especially for those who find themselves in this situation. And, let's be honest, it isn't a single instance here and there -- it is something that is unquestionably there.
Now, I know people will say, "Get over it" -- yada yada yada
But how are we, as the humans who created such a structure attempting to CHANGE the structure? We aren't. Or very few are.
yea. I think in some ways the system is broken. But ive seen the same kind of outcome from Baptist PKs that I know. I dont think it is unique to pentecost.
i hope we get better.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I can agree with this too... people think I am just down on preachers... I have the exact same issues with "saints"... I'm disillusioned on both sides of the fence, which is why I have started thinking more about the kind of people that live in certain towns and the kind of people who are attracted to certain cultures/religions. I can't even shake hands with some of the people at my dad's church without rolling my eyes... easier to just not go.
Is there such a thing as systemic spiritual abuse rather than one-on-one spiritual abuse?
What I see as a problem is not exactly what pastors do to saints and vice-versa but the system that allows or even promotes it. There is a culture of abuse. For example, the pharisees had a culture of making rules and then those rules being made into "commandments". Thus someone breaking the rules (for instance a jew) and someone allowing a rule to be broken (a pharisee but not of the ilk that loved the rules more than the people) both would be put in a potential position to be abused by the system.
The system being the culture and those that loved it more than God or people.
There were pharisees in Jesus' day that believed in Jesus but weren't allowed freedom to believe in Him because of their place in the system.
I read that book quite a while ago. The author mentions abuse against pastors as well as against saints.
Definition I found on-line:
Spiritual abuse is the misuse of a position of power, leadership, or influence to further the selfish interests of someone other than the individual who needs help. Sometimes abuse arises out of a doctrinal position. At other times it occurs because of legitimate personal needs of a leader that are being met by illegitimate means. Spiritually abusive religious systems are sometimes described as legalistic, mind controlling, religiously addictive, and authoritarian.
James 2
12 So whenever you speak, or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law of love, the law that set you free. 13 For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.
Is there such a thing as systemic spiritual abuse rather than one-on-one spiritual abuse?
What I see as a problem is not exactly what pastors do to saints and vice-versa but the system that allows or even promotes it. There is a culture of abuse. For example, the pharisees had a culture of making rules and then those rules being made into "commandments". Thus someone breaking the rules (for instance a jew) and someone allowing a rule to be broken (a pharisee but not of the ilk that loved the rules more than the people) both would be put in a potential position to be abused by the system.
The system being the culture and those that loved it more than God or people.
There were pharisees in Jesus' day that believed in Jesus but weren't allowed freedom to believe in Him because of their place in the system.
I read that book quite a while ago. The author mentions abuse against pastors as well as against saints.
Definition I found on-line:
Spiritual abuse is the misuse of a position of power, leadership, or influence to further the selfish interests of someone other than the individual who needs help. Sometimes abuse arises out of a doctrinal position. At other times it occurs because of legitimate personal needs of a leader that are being met by illegitimate means. Spiritually abusive religious systems are sometimes described as legalistic, mind controlling, religiously addictive, and authoritarian.
Honest and sincere question here (figured I should put that in there since I have a reputation of being silly -- and rebellious):
Don't you think it's a telling sign when so many PK's all have the same concept of both pastors and saints? I mean, isn't that pointing to a fault somewhere? And I'm not saying that, as PK's, we should be given a pass and left out of the equation -- but, in the end, the equation, more times than necessary, points to having a problem in the system as a whole. Especially for those who find themselves in this situation. And, let's be honest, it isn't a single instance here and there -- it is something that is unquestionably there.
Now, I know people will say, "Get over it" -- yada yada yada
But how are we, as the humans who created such a structure attempting to CHANGE the structure? We aren't. Or very few are.
The PKs in our church are still young (12 and almost 4) and they don't get treated any differently than anyone else's kids. As much as it annoys the pastor's daughter to be treated like the other girls her age (12), her pastor has sided with her Sunday School teachers and the youth group leaders.
Well you folks go ahead and enjoy your abuse there is an old saying misery loves company, but I made up mind to give my hurts to Jesus and he healed them. And would have healed them sooner if I hadn't kept the wound fresh.
Folks are all the time bragging on Jakes around here haven't you read Jake's deal on "Letting it go?"
I refuse the chains of unforgiveness and bitterness.
I refuse to allow the people who hurt me to keep on hurting me because I will not give them to Jesus.
Well you folks go ahead and enjoy your abuse there is an old saying misery loves company, but I made up mind to give my hurts to Jesus and he healed them. And would have healed them sooner if I hadn't kept the wound fresh.
Folks are all the time bragging on Jakes around here haven't you read Jake's deal on "Letting it go?"
I refuse the chains of unforgiveness and bitterness.
I refuse to allow the people who hurt me to keep on hurting me because I will not give them to Jesus.
Elder, I am with you. ive been down some hard roads in this area but God remains faithful even when men dont.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
According to spiritualabuse.org it is described as ....
What is spiritual abuse? Just as emotional abuse affects one emotionally, while physical abuse inflicts pain and bodily injury on its victim, spiritual abuse affects one spiritually. It is the result of a spiritual leader or system that tries to control, manipulate, or dominate a person. This control is often in the form of fear. This is considered a major factor in mind control or thought reform. There are those who feel the latter comes into play in cases such as these, while others feel the thinking is in error. No matter where one stands, it does not lessen the affects of spiritual abuse.
David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen in The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse describe the action: "It's possible to become so determined to defend a spiritual place of authority, a doctrine or a way of doing things that you wound and abuse anyone who questions, or disagrees, or doesn't 'behave' spiritually the way you want them to. When your words and actions tear down another, or attack or weaken a person's standing as a Christian- to gratify you, your position or your beliefs while at the same time weakening or harming another- that is spiritual abuse."
Does leadership in your church demand you consult with them (or your discipler) before making major decisions or any decisions at all? Has leadership forbidden you to go on vacation or spend time with someone (particularly one who has left the church group)?
Do you find yourself periodically questioning your spirituality or standing with God? Have you been preoccupied with checking out others in the congregation to see who is living up to the rules and who isn't?
Are extra-biblical rules and standards equated as coming from God, with your salvation or spirituality linked to following them? Do you find that cutting or not cutting your hair has now become an indicator of your spirituality?
Has the initial joy you felt when first coming to know the Lord been replaced with worry? Do you feel you're not doing enough or are not good enough and can't live up to what is expected?
Do services uplift and give strength or do you feel sad, beaten down, or depressed afterward? Has your view of God changed to where he is seen as a harsh taskmaster, eagerly waiting for you to mess up so he can chastise you or leave you behind?
If you have experienced any of these, or similar, you may be a victim of spiritual abuse.
______________________________
Here are some questions for y'all?
- Does spiritual abuse happen in our circles? -What recourse do victims of spiritual abuse have to deal w/ this issue? - Are those who expose this abuse victims ... or spewers of venom, whiners and standard-haters?
Wow Daniel how deep.I wonder how many congregations preach uncut hair and what churches or organizations this article could be implicating as subtle as it may be? I wonder if it then should go on to say that if your church teaches that the only way to be saved is by repentance,baptism in Jesus Name and the infilling of the Holy Ghost and makes you feel you are not saved if you haven't had this biblical experience it that qualifies as spiritual abuse as well.
If the wound is not properly cleaned and dressed, it could turn into a life threatening infection. One so wounded needs proper care, especially one who had no solid experience prior to the abuse. Then after proper care let it heal and move on. It is easy for one that has been healed to forget the process, and to act as if it is no big deal. I do agree that one should move on to positive relationships ASAP.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
It's ALL good!!!
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