Where exactly the UPCI got tithing from?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Neither the Eastern or Western Roman church practice tithing. Dollar offerings are the norm for traditional Catholics.

Originally Posted by diakonos

You are correct.

In light of this information, does it make sense what I said about the Pentecostal tithes being the equivalent of the Catholic “indulgences”?

[Tithesmeister]

Well, it sounds like Brother Coksiw has figured out where the UPCI got its tithing doctrine from. It was made up in Cleveland Tn.. Brother Coksiw? Did you solve the mystery?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Well, it sounds like Brother Coksiw has figured out where the UPCI got its tithing doctrine from. It was made up in Cleveland Tn.. Brother Coksiw? Did you solve the mystery?

I still have to look more and read more those documents, but that was just how the Cleveland Tn church introduced it, not the UPCI. It is a good representation of the sentiment of the time, though, in the Pentecostal Oneness movement.

[coksiw]

Clevenland Tn 1913/1/1 minutes

We see the need of a systematic plan for the support of God's work. If
the Bible gives a plan I ' m sure this is what we are looking for. If we
can discover a system that has proven good in the past, and the one out-
lined by the Bible, I'm sure it will be s great blessing to the church. I
looked at many faces to find some one to address the Assembly on this
subject and finally could se no on but brother Lawson. I hesitated a
little because he had not been baptized with the Holy Ghost. But as he
received his baptism a few nights ago I am now delighted to present to
you a man full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom.

Brother Lawson speaking:

It is with a great deal of emarrassment that I enter this subject. For the last few weeks my soul has been burdened for myself because of earnestly seeking for the baptism until I have been unable to prepare the subject as I should, but I am glad to say that I received the Holy Ghost Tuesday night.

This body ought to find a systematic plan of giving. In the first place I'll ask if the church can be run without money? (Sounds of No! No! when up from the audience). Then what should be the plan to keep money in the church, and who should have the disposition of it?

Some people seem to think that tithing was a commandment under the law and had its origin there, but Abraham paid tithes 420 years before the law was given. The law compelled men to pay tithes but under the new covenant we have the law of liberty. There is nothing that shows Abraham was compelled or even asked to pay tithes, but it was a voluntary act on his part and Melchisedec blessed him.

(then He goes more with the typical argument... cutting for brevity)

Our system here at the Cleveland church is to have a tithing box on the pulpit as a receptacle for tithes and offerings. Out of this we give a tenth of the state overseer and he in turn tithes what he receives and gives it to the general overseer, and the reminder is used to pay the pastor, caring for the poor, and general expenses of the church.

When you decide that you should pay tithes, and you place it in the box then your esponsibility ceases and it is then up to the deacons. If we as a church will practice the tithing system others will rise up and call us blessed. Mal 3:8,13, teaches that if we bring all our tithes into the store house God will pour us out such a blessing that there will not be room to receive it. There is a promise here also of temporal blessings.

(then He continues with Bible argumentation that tithing is for the NT also)

... The New Testament certainly teaches tithing, then it is a good work and ought to be put in practice by every member of the Church of God.

General Overseer words: I would liek to speak a little more regarding the financial system. I wish to refer to the type as outlined by brother Lee and LEmons in their discourses.

It is true we have been getting along some way and God has provided for us at times in miraculous ways. It is good for us ministers to get in hard places and trust God and see Him work to help us out, but there are some good things that we must not withold from the lay members. While God has blest us we don't want to forget the sheep and neglect to teach them the things that will bring a blessing to them. We should not become too much elated over the fact that some hae been supplied in miraculous ways. We must have a systematic plan in order for all to receive the greatest blessings.

We have been running our financial business in a haphazard way. Our ministers go to places and hold meetings and public collectiosn are taken up to meet necessary expenses, but this does not bring the blessings to the givers as they give because of necessity rather than because they love God.

...

Very interesting how the discussion evolved and the argumentation used.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I still have to look more and read more those documents, but that was just how the Cleveland Tn church introduced it, not the UPCI. It is a good representation of the sentiment of the time, though, in the Pentecostal Oneness movement.

Brother it seems to me that this doctrine is awfully close to the main Pentecostal tradition of tithing regardless of whether it called itself UPCI. As I have posted previously, there was a lot of copying and pasting going on in the Pentecostal ranks during the first half of the twentieth century. Some of the doctrine was pretty much like the example Paul spoke of when he said . . .

Acts.17

[21] (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

The UPCI did some things that they aren’t too proud of today because they got swept up into the latter rain movement and other such happenings. It may be that the tithe doctrine that you’re referring to could be original but it may be rooted in divine revelation via . . .

Joseph Smith!

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by Tithemonster

The UPCI did some things that they aren’t too proud of today because they got swept up into the latter rain movement and other such happenings

¿que?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by diakonos

¿que?

Si. Es verdad.

[coksiw]

Follow up in the 1919/01 minutes:

I judge it necessary to call briefly to the financial system. For several years we have been feeling our way along this subject, giving it much study, and praying earnestly for God to give both light and knowledge. For years, many of our people had been practicing tithe paying, and giving freewill offerings besides, but during those years there was no system known. Every person placed his tithes where he felt "lead of the Lord".

We have no criticism to offer, for all were doing the best they know at that time. In many things, in those days, we were groping our way along in the early drawn, and we might say, in the dark. It was no until at the eight Annual Assembly (1913/1), which convened at Cleveland, Tn, that it was decided the Scriptural method of paying tithes was to pay them to the Church, the body of Christ, instead of the haphazzard manner as practiced hitherto. Even at that time some of our leading members did not see it in that light, but they were WISE ENOUGH to submit and give it a trail.

One year's practice proved so satisfactory that the Ninth Annual Assembly it received a warm endorsement, and the people took to it with more intereset and enthusiasm than the past. They saw it was the Scriptural order. They saw they could apy their tithes to the body of Christ that liveth, instead of some individual, like the priest under the law, that would die. This was made clear by the reading, and an explanation of the Seventh Chapter of Hebrews. This plan has been made so clear that outsiders have seen it clearly and they want to pay tithes to the body of Christ, and have been doing it, when they would not think of paying the Lord's money to an individual.

(cut for brevity)

But the time came for a change. Almost all that were specially interested in the subject believed there should be a change in the manner of distribution. But not so many were willing to say what the change should be. But when the subject was presented before the Assembly, and the plan explained, and the reason and explanation given, along with the Scriptural proof, the minds of the brethren became pliant and it was finally decided to make one special change and place the matter in charge of the Council of Elders to work out. Although there was some opposition to this for a while, it was kept before the Assembly until the opposition so cleared away that on the last presentation there was not an opposing voice heard. And if there were opposers, they, like others in the past, were wise enough to remain quiet, and give a chance for a trial of the new order.

(cuts for brevity)

Under the system practiced the past two years every minister has paid tithes. This will be shown by the reports later on in the Assembly. Why do I say this? Because the tithes belong to the minsters. I have heard this statement made by a number of the speakers in the past Assemblies. If I say it now, I only repeat what has been said before. If any of the ministers have failed to receive their proportion of the nine-tenths, it has been caused by a failure somewhere in hearty co-operation. Those over the treasuries cannot attend to the work perfectly when there is not response and cooperation on the part of others. And the Council cannot regular the system perfectly while some who are over the treasuries refuse to cooperate with them. Our records at the office show those who have failed as well as those who have been faithful.

For what I can understand, the original proposal included, from the total tithe, a tenth for the state overseer, another tenth for the general overseer, and the rest for the pastor, the poor and the building expenses, but at this point few years after the original proposal, the tithe is 100% for the ministers, (it appears that 10% for the general overseer, and 90% for the "ministers").

It is also interesting that before the tithing system, they supported themselves with voluntary offerings, and God did miracles. That also some members didn't see a problem with that, but everyone was compelled "to give it a try", and it was "WISE" to hold your peace on the topic. Also, the original brother that had a significant "burden" about bringing tithe, didn't even have the Holy Spirit at the time of that burden, but got it right before the Assembly meeting. He was like a new convert in Christ. However, the General overseer, seconded the proposal towards the end of the meeting.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Follow up in the 1919/01 minutes:



For what I can understand, the original proposal included, from the total tithe, a tenth for the state overseer, another tenth for the general overseer, and the rest for the pastor, the poor and the building expenses, but at this point few years after the original proposal, the tithe is 100% for the ministers, (it appears that 10% for the general overseer, and 90% for the "ministers").

It is also interesting that before the tithing system, they supported themselves with voluntary offerings, and God did miracles. That also some members didn't see a problem with that, but everyone was compelled "to give it a try", and it was "WISE" to hold your peace on the topic. Also, the original brother that had a significant "burden" about bringing tithe, didn't even have the Holy Spirit at the time of that burden, but got it right before the Assembly meeting. He was like a new convert in Christ. However, the General overseer, seconded the proposal towards the end of the meeting.

Interesting . . .

Also I have long understood that preachers believe that they are the new Levites. They won’t say it directly in my experience. But it pretty much has to be the case when you look at the doctrine. One thing is missing of course. I haven’t seen any scripture that supports their position.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Interesting . . .

Also I have long understood that preachers believe that they are the new Levites. They won’t say it directly in my experience. But it pretty much has to be the case when you look at the doctrine. One thing is missing of course. I haven’t seen any scripture that supports their position.

I think the doctrine of tithing was already in the "air" in Christianity in America, and it was a great opportunity to ensure and increase income for the "ministers". If I recall the book from Russell Earl Kelly, the tithing doctrine was growing in the USA a few decade right before those early 1910-1920 years.

I'm telling you, it is an American thing, and the "get wealthy" culture.