Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dead?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Lets go though the context of 2 Cor. 5.

This is often used against soul sleep teaching. However it fails to take the CONTEXT of 2 Cor.

Paul teaches:

1: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2: For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4: For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5: Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6: Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7: (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:1-10

The "instant Heaven" doctrine would grant mortality being swallowed up of life at the moment of death.

This is incorrect. That would only be true if mortality was not speaking of the body only. In 1 Cor 15, the subject is the body and what sort of body will we have in the resurrection. So the BODY ALONE is what is mortal whose mortality is swallowed up of life. Not the soul. the only part of us that "changes" is the body in 1 Cor 15. And that is because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom in its present mortal form. therefore, it must change from being mortal to immortal.

However the VERY SAME PAUL tells us EXACTLY when mortality will be swallowed up of life. Exactly when this MORTAL will put on IMMORTALITY

But in both cases he is solely speaking of the body. 2 Cor 5 is speaking of the body as well as 1 Cor 15. Nothing more.

51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So Paul was giving his doctrine to the very same group of people. The Corinthians. There could have been no misunderstanding on their part.

Immortality is given at the last trump at Christs coming.

When he says we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord observe the context. He says "if our bodies are dissolved" we have another body eternal in the Heavens.

It is clear from his PREVIOUS TEACHING to them that the NEW BODY OF IMMORTALITY is given not at death but at the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD taught by him in 1 Cor. 15.

Right -- BODY. Not soul or spirit.

So when we are absent FROM THE BODY THAT IS DISSOLVED then (at resurrection) we can take on the new immortal body he speaks of that is eternal in the Heavens.

That is not the context, though. The context mentions a nakedness without the body. And this is precisely what Paul said occurs when we die. The soul and spirit are absent from the body and present with the Lord. If it was as you claim, there is an interim period between the time of the death and the time when the immortal body is provided when death is swallowed up of life. But Paul says nothing about that interim period. Neither does Paul say that absence from the mortal body is presence with the Lord in an immortal body. All these very important factors are missing, if you are correct. That means, I believe you are adding to the text something that is not there based upon your pretext.

1) Paul does not say anything about an interim period.

2) Paul does not say absence from one body means presence with the Lord in another body.

Leaving the context intact, without additions to it, we read that we are naked outside the body when we die, and are with the Lord. But that is not permanent. Though our mortal bodies dissolve, and we are absent from them at death, we are promised a body from heaven that is immortal. Mortality is swallowed up of life when the mortal body, dead or alive, changes. And then our bodily-absent spirits and souls once again become housed in a body, but an immortal one this time.

It cannot be overlooked that Pauls belief was that eternal life was synonomous with IMMORTALITY.

In this context it is restricted to the body aspect alone, though. Again, BODIES are the themes of both 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15.

Sorry I cannot see your view coinciding with scripture. You have to read into the scripture things it does not say to arrive at your conclusion.

But thanks for your explanation. I do respect it.

[easter]

Michael can you explain what the verse means?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was;and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

There are four basic beliefs about death...
(1)Atheists(annihilation)
(2)reincarnation(Hindu)
(3)Soul Sleep(third century Heretics belief)
(4)Separation of body and spirit
Ecclesiastes 12:6 talks about a silver cord being broken.Now when we are born the cord is cut and we began to live separate from our mothers.When we die the silver cord is cut and we began to live separate from our bodies.(Silver also means redemption in the Bible)

The dead in Christ is a metaphor and is used when talking about the righteous have died and when they are gathered by their people this simply means their people buried their body but their spirit has returned to the Lord that gave it.Now before Jesus went to the cross the spirits went down into the heart of the earth.Jesus descended and then he ascended and took those righteous spirits to Paradise which is now located in the third heaven.
The spirit(Ruach in Hebrew)returns to God.
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into Paradise,and heard unspeakable words,which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

This is speaking about Paul when he was stoned in Lystra and left for dead.Notice he was caught up(Paradise/Pardeis in Hebrew)not down,but up.
Jesus did go down in the heart of the earth and preached to those righteous ones and he brought them out and this was the first resurrection.The spirits have been going up to Paradise ever since.They are not a memory to Jesus,they are with Jesus in spirit and when the Harpazo(Greek)Rapturo(Latin)Rapture(English) happens those spirits will come back with the Lord to recieve their glorified bodies.

[Michael The Disciple]

This is incorrect. That would only be true if mortality was not speaking of the body only. In 1 Cor 15, the subject is the body and what sort of body will we have in the resurrection. So the BODY ALONE is what is mortal whose mortality is swallowed up of life. Not the soul.

Your assumption is that only the body dies. The scriptures say the opposite:

4: Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

But in both cases he is solely speaking of the body. 2 Cor 5 is speaking of the body as well as 1 Cor 15. Nothing more.

Then I ask what point is the resurrection?

That is not the context, though. The context mentions a nakedness without the body. And this is precisely what Paul said occurs when we die. The soul and spirit are absent from the body and present with the Lord. If it was as you claim, there is an interim period between the time of the death and the time when the immortal body is provided when death is swallowed up of life. But Paul says nothing about that interim period. Neither does Paul say that absence from the mortal body is presence with the Lord in an immortal body. All these very important factors are missing, if you are correct. That means, I believe you are adding to the text something that is not there based upon your pretext.

1) Paul does not say anything about an interim period.

2) Paul does not say absence from one body means presence with the Lord in another body.

Leaving the context intact, without additions to it, we read that we are naked outside the body when we die, and are with the Lord. But that is not permanent. Though our mortal bodies dissolve, and we are absent from them at death, we are promised a body from heaven that is immortal. Mortality is swallowed up of life when the mortal body, dead or alive, changes. And then our bodily-absent spirits and souls once again become housed in a body, but an immortal one this time.

Paul says nothing about an interim period?

How about the three times in 1 Thess 4 where Paul says the dead are asleep? The dead being "asleep" is mentioned MANY TIMES. That is the interim period.

You mention "leaving the context intact". Thats something thats not possible to do in Pauls teaching on the resurrection if one believes he is ONLY SPEAKING OF DEAD BODIES rather than dead PEOPLE. Paul does not say anywhere hes only talking about the body.

Matter of fact he destroys the doctrine of "instant heaven" when he says this:

22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor. 15:22-23

He proves the dead are NOT alive by saying at the second coming they will be MADE ALIVE.

That alone is sufficient to prove the dead are really dead.

Yet there is more thunderous proof.

32: If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 1 Cor. 15:32

If Paul believed his spirit and soul were going to eternal life instantly at death he would not have said this. But he says if there is no RESURRECTION lets party! Lets get our kicks now because thats it!

He seems oblivious to your belief that he would gain immortality long before the resurrection takes place.

So it is certainly not accurate to say he writes only about dead bodies being raised.

[Michael The Disciple]

That is not the context, though. The context mentions a nakedness without the body. And this is precisely what Paul said occurs when we die. The soul and spirit are absent from the body and present with the Lord. If it was as you claim, there is an interim period between the time of the death and the time when the immortal body is provided when death is swallowed up of life.

If one believes the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is indeed literal this theory fails.

You say the soul and spirit are now in Heaven with the Lord only without a body.

Why did the rich man SEE ABRAHAM if he had no body? Why did they see each other at all if they had no bodily presence?

I thought the rich man lift up his EYES in Hades? Are not eyes part of a body?

Why did the rich man ask for Lazarus to dip his FINGER in water if neither one had a body?

If this parable were literal it must be taught that when the spirit and soul go to Heaven they DO have a body!

And again we must ask if the dead are already alive in Heaven and they already have a spirit body why is there any need for the resurrection of those who never died in the first place?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Your assumption is that only the body dies. The scriptures say the opposite:

I am not assuming anything about the body alone dying, since that is not even my emphasis here. I am simply saying 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15 are contextually about the body alone as the main theme.

Then I ask what point is the resurrection?

I believe it is to restore man WHOLLY, to have both spirit and soul and body immortal.

Paul says nothing about an interim period?

How about the three times in 1 Thess 4 where Paul says the dead are asleep? The dead being "asleep" is mentioned MANY TIMES. That is the interim period.

Where is the interim period in 1 Cor 15 and 2 Cor 5? It's not there. Dead being asleep refers to the body alone. Never do we see soul sleep spelled out for us.

You mention "leaving the context intact". Thats something thats not possible to do in Pauls teaching on the resurrection if one believes he is ONLY SPEAKING OF DEAD BODIES rather than dead PEOPLE. Paul does not say anywhere hes only talking about the body.

Yes he did! 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15 is speaking of the states of the body.

2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Note the context. WE are noteed apart from our bodies. In "THIS" "WE" Groan. THIS is the body and WE can only refer to soul and/or spirit. So when we read Paul spoke of being absent from the body and present with the Lord, the "WE" distinction from the house of the body in verse 1 must be maintained when. Contextually, this means PAUL's soul and/or spirit desired to leave his body and be present with the Lord.

Matter of fact he destroys the doctrine of "instant heaven" when he says this:

22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor. 15:22-23

One can be spiritually alive and physically alive, and vice versa for death. I was spiritually dead while in sin! But my soul was still active.

He proves the dead are NOT alive by saying at the second coming they will be MADE ALIVE.

That alone is sufficient to prove the dead are really dead.

Yet there is more thunderous proof.

32: If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 1 Cor. 15:32

If Paul believed his spirit and soul were going to eternal life instantly at death he would not have said this.

Again, the issue is the body. He proceeded to teach the answer to the question "with what body do they come?"

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If one believes the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is indeed literal this theory fails.

You say the soul and spirit are now in Heaven with the Lord only without a body.

Why did the rich man SEE ABRAHAM if he had no body? Why did they see each other at all if they had no bodily presence?

I thought the rich man lift up his EYES in Hades? Are not eyes part of a body?

Why did the rich man ask for Lazarus to dip his FINGER in water if neither one had a body?

If this parable were literal it must be taught that when the spirit and soul go to Heaven they DO have a body!

And again we must ask if the dead are already alive in Heaven and they already have a spirit body why is there any need for the resurrection of those who never died in the first place?

I think you really pretext all of your ideas here, and insert them into the text we have in the Word. Who said we cannot see in the spirit realm things without bodies? Samuel was seen by Saul and the witch of Endor. That was not his body. Even if it was a devil, as I think some erringly propose the witch could only produce, it still was not a body.

[Michael The Disciple]

Now before Jesus went to the cross the spirits went down into the heart of the earth.Jesus descended and then he ascended and took those righteous spirits to Paradise which is now located in the third heaven.

Jesus did go down in the heart of the earth and preached to those righteous ones and he brought them out and this was the first resurrection.

I wonder why David was not in this resurrection? I pointed out earlier Peter said explicitly DAVID IS NOT ASCENDED INTO THE HEAVENS.

34: For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Acts 2:34

Why was David left behind? Could it be that no one went to Heaven with Christ at his ascencion?

Yes it well could be. Lets look at his ascencion.

9: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10: And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11: Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Acts 2:34

There it is. He went up alone no one went with him.

Also if there was a resurrection of the people in Hades it was not a resurrection at all because according to you they were never dead in the first place.

This scripture proves that no one else gained eternal life-immortality at Christs resurrection.

14: That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16: Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 1 Tim. 6:14-16

Here Paul writes that ONLY........that is ONLY Jesus has immortality. If he ONLY has immortality no one else does.

Not Elijah, not the thief, not Samuel not Moses, not those who rose and went into Jerusalem when Christ rose.

Paul did not believe any of them had yet put on immortality. Only Jesus.

[easter]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If one believes the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is indeed literal this theory fails.

You say the soul and spirit are now in Heaven with the Lord only without a body.

Why did the rich man SEE ABRAHAM if he had no body? Why did they see each other at all if they had no bodily presence?

I thought the rich man lift up his EYES in Hades? Are not eyes part of a body?

Why did the rich man ask for Lazarus to dip his FINGER in water if neither one had a body?

If this parable were literal it must be taught that when the spirit and soul go to Heaven they DO have a body!

And again we must ask if the dead are already alive in Heaven and they already have a spirit body why is there any need for the resurrection of those who never died in the first place?

OH for Heaven's sake...
Do you forget that Jesus was seen by many after the crucifiction?
Do you forget that Saul seen the spirit of Samuel?
Do you realize that Angels are spirits?How many times is it recorded in the Bible of the people that seen Angels?
Lot
Abraham
Jacob
Let's not forget
Zacharias
Mary...and the list could go on and on.Angels are spirits and don't say they took on the form of humans because that is not what Daniel said
Daniel 10:5-6
However the spirits in Paradise await their glorified bodies.
Now after I've read what you what you posted above...
Why is there a need for a resurrection of those who never died in the first place.
You are aware that flesh and blood cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven.When the Rapture happens the spirits come back with Jesus to receive their glorified bodies(eternal Body,one that is perfect without blemish,never grow old and never die body)then those who are alive and remain will be changed in a twinkling of an eye and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
As far as spirits go Imagine since we in our physical body and we see one another you cannot say for certain that spirits cannot see one another also.
This has nothing to do with soul sleep except to say that at least we have made it to the point of spirits being alive and not dead.

[easter]

I never said the people in the heart of the earth didn't die?Quiet the contrary friend.I said the spirits were not dead.Spirits don't die and there was an resurrection of the old testament saints but it was their spirit that was resurrected out of the earth.They are still waiting for their glorified body.So really in a sense of being brought out of the heart of the earth maybe the word resurrection should not be used here because they don't have their glorified body(my mistake)So I will simply say these folks died a physical death and Jesus went down and got their spirits.

[easter]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Consider what Paul told his accusers:

14: But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:14-15

Notice the HOPE Paul was living for. THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

Also note:

6: But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. Acts 23:6

Again Pauls HOPE is in the resurrection of the dead.

Now to me if it were true that as soon as we die we are in the joy of Heaven THAT would be a greater hope than the resurrection! Why did Paul not preach IT (eternal life without resurrection)?

He does not even mention it in his evangelistic work!

His theme over and over is THE RESURRECTION.

Think about the foundation doctrines of Christ:

1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2: Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb. 6:1-2

Now most people certainly emphasize "eternal life at death" doctrine. Like I said if it were true it WOULD be more important than the mere resurrection of a dead human body!

Yet Paul never includes it as a FOUNDATION DOCTRINE!

Isnt that amazing?

Something that important. Possibly the most important thing of all and its not even a foundation doctrine of the Church!

Oh friends are you beginning to sense something is wrong with this doctrine?

I do have a problem with you saying that this is possibly the most important thing of all and it don't have a foundation in the doctrine of the Church.
Christ is the most important and without him the church has no foundation.You can not argue God's word and say it has no foundation in the church.The doctrine I teach is rooted in the word of God and that is all the foundation a Christian needs to start building on.Didn't Jesus say"upon this rock I build my church?