Massive shakeup going on!

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Ferd

The good news is, Bobby Jindal is a reformer who will clean things up.

Pray, Ferd, pray!

I believe it can actually happen.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by justasaint

Your right
the saints shouldn't controll the pastor nor should the pastor control the saints.

Whats the fuss the libs leave and they are demonized, and now the cons leave
they are demonized. WOW the cons and libs finally have something in common the UPC
is spreading rumors and is black listing them.

Lol, good point.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

FAL, I will humor you on this, although I think you already know the scriptures, and are just looking for a bit of a fray here.......

First, do you believe in the sovereignty of a pastor? If not, then the following scriptures don't apply:

However, if you do believe in the concept of God appointing pastors, here's your first scripture:

EPHESIANS 4:
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Then, if you believe that God has given you a pastor for your spiritual edification, here's the next directive:

HEBREWS 13:
7Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

17Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Now, do I believe that saints are to follow a pastor blindly? Absolutely not, Paul said "Follow me as I follow Christ".

Do I believe that saints have the right to stand up against a pastor, even when they feel he is wrong, and tell him how things are going to be? Absolutely not! Just ask the sons of Korah how that worked out against Moses.

If saints feel a pastor is leading them in a direction that's contrary to the word of God, they have the right and the free will to find another man of God who can feed and direct them.

Even when Saul, who was ungodly and filled with hatred, tried to kill David, David never stood up against him to destroy him, and the one time David took a piece of Saul's garment, he felt so guilty he had to repent.

Even when Eli was backslidden, Samuel never tried to take over his position.

Sorry, my friend, for a church to stand up and tell the pastor what to do is anti-scriptural in my studies.

Now, if you have some scripture to prove otherwise, I would be very happy to entertain your thesis.

By all means, I'll be waiting!

Just drink the kool aid and keep your mouth shut then. Okie Dokie

There is nothing wrong with a board being in place in a local assembly to keep an errant pastor from doing great harm to a congrgation.

Or is it you postion that the pastor is infallible?

I would not contribute one dime to a church that has a pastor that has 100% control over ever decision in an assembly, without consideration of other input from spiritual people in that assembly.

I spent many years in assembly's with pastors who abused the scriptures you postd to the hurt of the church.

Been there ,done that..all I got left is the Tee Shirt

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Just drink the kool aid and keep your mouth shut then. Okie Dokie

There is nothing wrong with a board being in place in a local assembly to keep an errant pastor from doing great harm to a congrgation.

Or is it you postion that the pastor is infallible?

I would not contribute one dime to a church that has a pastor that has 100% control over ever decision in an assembly, without consideration of other input from spiritual people in that assembly.

I spent many years in assembly's with pastors who abused the scriptures you postd to the hurt of the church.

Been there ,done that..all I got left is the Tee Shirt

Now it's my turn to ask you, can you provide scripture to back up this belief?

I'm anxiously awaiting.........

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Now it's my turn to ask you, can you provide scripture to back up this belief?

I'm anxiously awaiting.........

This is one example, maybe not a good one, since the church members seem to be letting this tyrant rule the roost but the apostle John, if he goes there, will intervene and set Diotrephes straight.

3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

This is one example, maybe not a good one, since the church members seem to be letting this tyrant rule the roost but the apostle John, if he goes there, will intervene and set Diotrephes straight.

3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

Having an overseer deal with a pastor is MUCH different than having the congregation stand up against him.

Please show me any instance in scripture where God sanctioned a congregation standing up against the ministry?

I've already mentioned David and Saul, Eli and Samuel, Moses and the sons of Korah, etc. even though the leaders were evil, God didn't support those under their care to come against them - God handled it.

So, I'd appreciate any scriptural reference that endorses the congregation disciplining the pastor?

[mizpeh]

Bro Phelps,

I agree with your POV and even printed out post #148 that you wrote.

I was curious to see what you would say to the example I gave.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Bro Phelps,

I agree with your POV and even printed out post #148 that you wrote.

I was curious to see what you would say to the example I gave.

Thanks.

In truth, I do not agree that pastors should be able to run churches like they own them, nor do I feel it's right for a pastor to get up in the pulpit and make sudden and drastic changes to the standards and mores of existing, established churches.

However, the danger I see is that when that does happen, and it will, many congregations don't know how to deal with it Biblically.

In nearly every other area of our lives, we are taught to "stand still and see the salvation of the Lord", we're taught to "Trust God and HE will work it out", we're taught that "No weapon formed against us shall prosper", etc.

So, if we TRULY believe those scriptures, and we TRULY believe the principles of submission that God has set forth in scripture, we understand that if the pastor is wrong, God will take care of it. And, if God is not moving quickly enough for us, and we truly believe that our salvation and the salvation of our children is in danger, then WE need to walk away.

There is PLENTY of scripture that condones walking away from those who walk in darkness, there is plenty of scripture where people couldn't agree and parted ways, and both stayed saved...........there is plenty of scripture encouraging us to fellowship with likeminded believers. Nothing wrong with making an amiable split, in my opinion.

However, I still can't find scripture that condones, or even allows, the congregation to overthrow the pastor.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Now it's my turn to ask you, can you provide scripture to back up this belief?

I'm anxiously awaiting.........

Mike..I am not advocating overthrowing a pastor. i am advocating that every church needs a spiritual board of Elders in place in the event a pastor goes bad.

A pastor that will not listen to the consel of godly men and women in his church has a head problem

You mentioned sevearl Old Testament examples of people like David that would not kill Saul. So I'll post some Old testament scripture that advocates seeking consel of others in making decisiions.

Proverbs 11:14
Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

A pastor is a fellow laborer in the work of God..when he sets himself up as a pope, that is in error.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

I've answered this on FAL's post, but since you mentioned it, maybe you can provide some scripture that says its ok for the saints to set policy in the church over the pastor? I'd be interested to see those.....

LOL. Strawman argument, or a false dilemma. As I said before, the body needs to work with all of its members in sync.

Oh, and I agree with your post to FAL. I just don't think it fits the bill for the "the great Apostle Paul had some strong teaching about the saints not controlling the pastor" statement. The pastor serves the people, and all the people serve the Lord. There should be no "control" among those who serve and are being served in this world.