Be Perfect Be Pure

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

When I said I embrace that now, I meant thats what I embrace already. Not sure if that was clear to you.

I had been urging you to be thoroughly consistent and embrace the view that someone is immediately lost when he sins rather than to continue teaching that someone merely loses his perfection but not his salvation when he sins at all. So when you said that you now embrace that view, it sounded like you were saying that you had now embraced the view that someone is immediately lost when he sins. I wish that was the case; teaching this losing-perfection-but-still-saved view is incompatible with your overall view of perfection.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Costeon

I know that as I've read your posts over the last year or so, I have always thought, "Now Evang really does seem Christlike in his responses. He is always so humble and patient and kind in his interaction with others. He is a model of good Christian behavior."

One reason I'm interested in your (and others') personal experience is that you have asserted your own righteousness very clearly, but this righteousness--even perfection--is never quite fully on display in your actual behavior on this forum. So I was thinking that if those who assert their perfection and maturity would let that be clearly seen on this forum, I would be able to look at them and think, "So perfection really is possible and so their views must be correct."

Bro, but that is insane! We are told that those who gauge themselves among themselves are not wise 2 Corinthians 10:12. Paul tells the Corinthian church that their letters were one thing, but their actual presence another. Still we are not to measure ourselves with each other. Following Paul as he followed Christ like ants in a straight line. The apostle is explaining that they were only following Christ as a group. Paul isn't the example setter, neither is pork sandwich eating Peter Galatians 2:12. It is only Jesus Christ who is our example. Not me, not you, but 1 John 3:7-8 still hangs over our heads like the sword of Damocles. My view isn't my view, it is in the Bible, and I therefore believe it because it is like a stop sign or a red light. You cannot avoid it. You may think you can blow through it, but there are repercussions.
So, I can be the biggest sinner who ever walked in cowboy boots, but 1 John 3:7-8 is still tapping on my driver side window, looking through mirror sunglasses. So, how do you get through all those verses I asked you about?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Costeon

It really is fascinating to get a peek inside the mind of someone who is so confident of his own goodness. What is even more fascinating is that you (and a couple of others) won't even simply answer the question on whether or not you ever sin, say, have a sinful attitude or thought. You truly think you are perfect. It's incredibly interesting.

What I think is just as fascinating is that you must be having a major struggling on a day by day level. That isn't an insult, by no means. Sinful attitude, why? Why would I have to have one? Sinful thoughts? Again, can you tell me why I would have to have them? My own goodness? Here is another thought of my old dad, "Christians think what Serial Killers actually perform." When he would say that he would roll, chew, the end of his cigar. Calvinism breeds the Jailhouse Jesus. I have a sister in the church who use to be a teacher in the prison. She was able to interview inmates as helpers. She interviewed one chap who was Bible study leader, helped in chapel. She told me that he was very pious and knowledgeable concerning scripture. Well, it turns out that when she checked out his background, that he assaulted the dental assistant, and broke her jaw. I said that to say this, he believed that while sinning he was saved. He could attempt to rape a girl but still be in good standing with God. Because after all it wasn't about his goodness, but Jesus' goodness. After all sin is part of who we are, and never can live a sin free life. So, we have a bullet wound oozing blood, and just a small band-aid to stop the hemorrhaging? Why is Jesus telling married men not to even look on a woman to lust after her in their mind? Didn't Jesus know that was clearly impossible? But even worse lay the charge of adultery? Costeon, please explain the verses I have given you. Clearly you have the time because you keep coming back for more.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Bro, but that is insane! We are told that those who gauge themselves among themselves are not wise 2 Corinthians 10:12. Paul tells the Corinthian church that their letters were one thing, but their actual presence another. Still we are not to measure ourselves with each other. Following Paul as he followed Christ like ants in a straight line. The apostle is explaining that they were only following Christ as a group. Paul isn't the example setter, neither is pork sandwich eating Peter Galatians 2:12. It is only Jesus Christ who is our example. Not me, not you, but 1 John 3:7-8 still hangs over our heads like the sword of Damocles. My view isn't my view, it is in the Bible, and I therefore believe it because it is like a stop sign or a red light. You cannot avoid it. You may think you can blow through it, but there are repercussions.
So, I can be the biggest sinner who ever walked in cowboy boots, but 1 John 3:7-8 is still tapping on my driver side window, looking through mirror sunglasses. So, how do you get through all those verses I asked you about?

I think what is insane is to think that 1 John 3:7-8 means that a single sinful thought, for example, makes one a child of the devil. John uses the present tense in these verses, and others like them, to describe a life characterized by willful sin and disregard for the Word of God, not a life characterized by obedience--but not absolute perfection. And so most major translations render these verses something like the ESV: "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil."

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What I think is just as fascinating is that you must be having a major struggling on a day by day level. That isn't an insult, by no means. Sinful attitude, why? Why would I have to have one? Sinful thoughts? Again, can you tell me why I would have to have them? My own goodness? Here is another thought of my old dad, "Christians think what Serial Killers actually perform." When he would say that he would roll, chew, the end of his cigar. Calvinism breeds the Jailhouse Jesus. I have a sister in the church who use to be a teacher in the prison. She was able to interview inmates as helpers. She interviewed one chap who was Bible study leader, helped in chapel. She told me that he was very pious and knowledgeable concerning scripture. Well, it turns out that when she checked out his background, that he assaulted the dental assistant, and broke her jaw. I said that to say this, he believed that while sinning he was saved. He could attempt to rape a girl but still be in good standing with God. Because after all it wasn't about his goodness, but Jesus' goodness. After all sin is part of who we are, and never can live a sin free life. So, we have a bullet wound oozing blood, and just a small band-aid to stop the hemorrhaging? Why is Jesus telling married men not to even look on a woman to lust after her in their mind? Didn't Jesus know that was clearly impossible? But even worse lay the charge of adultery? Costeon, please explain the verses I have given you. Clearly you have the time because you keep coming back for more.

Actually I don't feel like I am constantly struggling. I have noticed, for example, if I have had intense pressure at work for an extended amount of time or have had little sleep for an extended amount of time and am exhausted I am more prone to have a struggle with sinful thoughts. I don't think that is extraordinary. But apparently you, Esaias, and Michael never face this and continually prevail in absolute perfection. If this is true, bravo, I am sincerely impressed.

But I wonder if the Lord Jesus evaluates your thought life like you do? Does he regard you as consistently pristine as you suggest you are? How do you know you are perfect? You just don't ever feel conviction about anything done, thought, or said?

I have never suggested anything as extreme as your examples above. I would not think that someone who attempted rape and then assaulted someone else was a man of true faith. I have said repeatedly that the goal is to seek sinless perfection, and I would add that, if someone scoffed at that and said our behavior does not matter at all, I would assume that person did not have true faith. All truth faith is expressed in the pursuit of holiness. I may in fact have a good amount of time where I don't seem to sin in thought, word, or deed, but I do not think, practically speaking, that anyone is perfect at all times. I have not, at any rate, met anyone who is. I asked y'all if y'all were or if you knew anyone who was and y'all have acted like it was so odd that I would ask such a question. Who wouldn't want to know if there are others who are consistently perfect? Seriously, maybe I could learn something from how they manage it with the help of God.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Costeon

I think what is insane is to think that 1 John 3:7-8 means that a single sinful thought, for example, makes one a child of the devil. John uses the present tense in these verses, and others like them, to describe a life characterized by willful sin and disregard for the Word of God, not a life characterized by obedience--but not absolute perfection. And so most major translations render these verses something like the ESV: "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil."

Thank you, good job. So, now we need to know what is a single, rarely, sinful thought? Why are you having them? What are they? Are they Games of Throne thoughts? Are you having a tough time and wanting to cap your boss in the back of the head? Or filet the flesh off a coworker? Ok, now you are willing to take the time to hold a scriptural discussion, so, what does James 1:14-15 and Matthew 5:28 have in common?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Costeon

Actually I don't feel like I am constantly struggling. I have noticed, for example, if I have had intense pressure at work for an extended amount of time or have had little sleep for an extended amount of time and am exhausted I am more prone to have a struggle with sinful thoughts.

Again, what are these thoughts? In my own opinion, when you are under extreme pressure is when you should be at your best. The way I look at it, is that if you are Mr Holy at dinner on the grounds what is the big deal? Anyone can be in perfect serenity while eating MeMaws banana pudding, and talking to Cousin Raymie about fishing, and Bible study. When we are under attack, when we have the boss lighting us up, and cursing like James Brown at us. That is when it is time to really see if we got it in Jesus. When I was young, I was amazed to see two Rabbis after the death of one's child hug each other and utter the words, "God is good" They didn't miss a beat. An old time Hindu friend of mine met with all sorts of hardships but dealt with it through his Hindu philosophy. Anguish, pain, suffering, they dealt with it in total peace. So, why can't the Apostolic who has the Holy Ghost do better? He can, because Jesus is real and working within him. Who we are in the dark is who we are, that is the true you, when no one can see you. It is within your thoughts deep within you. That is the heart, which is supposed to be transformed by its renewing. Do I need to find out if you are outdoing my friends who aren't Christians? No, because I have found that in Christianity it is all about doing the bare minimum. I expect those who were greatly influenced by mainstream America Puritanism Calvinism that they chase the perfection carrot on a stick. I will never be sin free until I die physically and gain it through my own resurrection.

Calvinists say, "I will be free when I die and go to heaven!" Jesus died, was buried, and rose the third day? So, through that death, burial, and resurrection we attain freedom from sin? But, the Calvinist does not have any freedom from anything until he dies, is buried, and later on is resurrected. So, Jesus' death, burial and resurrection didn't do anything? But, it is your own physical death, burial, and your own resurrection is what brings you salvation? Isn't that right?



I don't think that is extraordinary. But apparently you, Esaias, and Michael never face this and continually prevail in absolute perfection. If this is true, bravo, I am sincerely impressed.

Originally Posted by Costeon

But I wonder if the Lord Jesus evaluates your thought life like you do?

Ask Him.

Originally Posted by Costeon

Does he regard you as consistently pristine as you suggest you are?

Again, go ask Him.

Originally Posted by Costeon

How do you know you are perfect? You just don't ever feel conviction about anything done, thought, or said?

Walk in the Spirit and not after the flesh?

Originally Posted by Costeon

I have never suggested anything as extreme as your examples above. I would not think that someone who attempted rape and then assaulted someone else was a man of true faith. I have said repeatedly that the goal is to seek sinless perfection, and I would add that, if someone scoffed at that and said our behavior does not matter at all, I would assume that person did not have true faith. All truth faith is expressed in the pursuit of holiness. I may in fact have a good amount of time where I don't seem to sin in thought, word, or deed, but I do not think, practically speaking, that anyone is perfect at all times. I have not, at any rate, met anyone who is. I asked y'all if y'all were or if you knew anyone who was and y'all have acted like it was so odd that I would ask such a question. Who wouldn't want to know if there are others who are consistently perfect? Seriously, maybe I could learn something from how they manage it with the help of God.

Bro, if you can't learn from book, chapter, and verse? Even if I spit communion wafers and lotus blossoms appeared in my footsteps you still wouldn't believe.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I expect those who were greatly influenced by mainstream America Puritanism Calvinism that they chase the perfection carrot on a stick. I will never be sin free until I die physically and gain it through my own resurrection.

Calvinists say, "I will be free when I die and go to heaven!" Jesus died, was buried, and rose the third day? So, through that death, burial, and resurrection we attain freedom from sin? But, the Calvinist does not have any freedom from anything until he dies, is buried, and later on is resurrected. So, Jesus' death, burial and resurrection didn't do anything? But, it is your own physical death, burial, and your own resurrection is what brings you salvation? Isn't that right?

I have never said what you say these Calvinists say. I think I have experienced freedom in a number of areas. Praise God.

Ask Him.

The response was, "Could it be that he thinks a little too highly of himself?"
I'm not sure if that was from the Lord, but it came to mind. :-)

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Costeon

I have never said what you say these Calvinists say. I think I have experienced freedom in a number of areas. Praise God.

Good job

Originally Posted by Costeon

The response was, "Could it be that he thinks a little too highly of himself?"
I'm not sure if that was from the Lord, but it came to mind. :-)

That wasn't Jesus, that was Krishna, he doesn't like me.

[BrainWashed]

Be Perfect Be Pure....?

You're basically asking to be like me!