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  #21  
Old 12-23-2019, 09:27 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

Well, the disciples gathered daily for multiple reasons: you can simply search for "daily" in the book of Acts.

But for whatever reason, Sunday became the day over time. We meet on Sunday twice an twice during the week. Sunday is definitely a tradition at this point. It is off for most people, even for many of those that work 6 days a week.
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  #22  
Old 12-23-2019, 09:31 PM
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Re: Why Sunday

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
1 Corinthians 16:2 looks like it could be re-translated, too. See here:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/16-2.htm

κατὰ μίαν σαββάτου

kata mian sabbatou

It seems to read better simply as "According to each sabbath...".

In both cases, there is no word for "day", either in Acts 20:7 or in 1 Corinthians 16:2. Translators are reading the mia as an ordinal here, then reading sabbatos as a metonym for "week", thus thinking mia refers to the first of the week, which must refer to the first day. But that seems an overwrought attempt at defending (or perhaps concealing) an anti-Sabbath ideology that is otherwise absent from the Covenants of the Holy Scriptures, Old and New.
The question then is mian sabbatou etc a common first century Greek phrase for "first of the week" or "one of the sabbaths" ?
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  #23  
Old 12-23-2019, 09:39 PM
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Re: Why Sunday

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post

But for whatever reason, Sunday became the day over time.
That "whatever reason" was the pro-Sunday anti-Sabbath position of the Church of Rome being enforced throughout catholicism until it was official Holy Tradition, then being continued by Protestants who sought to divorce it from Holy Tradition and Magisterium by concocting "Sabbath transference" theories interpreting the fourth commandment as applicable to Sunday, followed by evangelical Protestants and Pentecostals not wanting to go against the tide of both religious and secular tradition.
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  #24  
Old 12-23-2019, 09:41 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

Jesus arose the first day of the week.

He appeared to Thomas the next first Day of the week.

Paul preached the first day in Acts 20:7.

1 Cor 16 says they were to gather offerings for Paul on the first day.

Paul said that he lived AS a Jew to win the Jews, and he preached in synagogues on the sabbath, not to hear a sermon for himself, but to reach the jews gathered together to learn about God, meaning it was not their "church gather".

There is no note about the church keeping sabbath and attending church meetings in anything near or close to the references that refer to the first day of the week that distinctly mention the church and the first day. Why don't we read the church gathered the seventh day? The church gathered Sabbath? We only read of Paul reaching Jews in synagogues on sabbath, and nothing about the actual church being directed and/or said to do things on the seventh day.

If the two references in Acts 20 and 1 Cor 16 were not about church gatherings on the first day, they're still distinctly for the church and on the first day, and nothing similar can be found about sabbath for the church to offset the lean toward First Day worship. It's always only Paul preaching to jews on the sabbath.

It's far too vague to use anything in the New Testament to promote sabbath keeping. Like so many other beliefs, if that were the case there would have been much more elaboration made about it in the epistles and Acts than there is, if it were true.
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Last edited by mfblume; 12-23-2019 at 09:51 PM.
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  #25  
Old 12-23-2019, 10:09 PM
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Re: Why Sunday

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Jesus arose the first day of the week.
Not because of any significance to the first day of the week. Rather, the significance was the "third day" after crucifixion. That third day happened to be on the first day of the week that year. The profession of faith in 1 Cor 15 makes no mention of the first day, but rather "the third day".

Quote:
He appeared to Thomas the next first Day of the week.
John 20:26 shows that He appeared to Thomas on a Monday at the earliest, most likely a Tuesday.

Quote:
Paul preached the first day in Acts 20:7.
He may have preached ON the first day of the week in that verse but I doubt he "preached the first day" in that verse. lol Anyways, that was a special meeting because he was leaving the next morning (going on a journey on sunday). Besides which common early Christian and first century Jewish custom was to gather for prayer at the end of the Sabbath during a meeting that bridged the end of the Sabbath and the beginning of the first day. Jews call it havdalah (separation), Christians called it Vespers or Lamplighting. It usually included the Lord's Supper or bread breaking and fellowship meal, still common among Sabbath keepers, some Orthodox churches, and most orthodox synagogues.

Quote:
1 Cor 16 says they were to gather offerings for Paul on the first day.
It was a collection for poor Christians in Jerusalem in anticipation of a prophesied famine, financial business and accounting usually takes place on the first day of the week for Sabbath keepers.

Quote:
Paul said that he lived AS a Jew to win the Jews, and he preached in synagogues on the sabbath, not to hear a sermon for himself, but to reach the jews gathered together to learn about God, meaning it was not their "church gather".
Gentiles requested and he agreed to preach the gospel to them more in depth, on the next Sabbath. He taught circumcision and uncircumcision aren't what matters but what matters is keeping the commandments of God. He specificly ruled out any commandment breaking as being incompatible with the Christian faith. Living as a Jew does not refer to obeying God's commandments, but refers to his conformity to CUSTOM when in company with Jews (as long as said custom did not include separation from Greek believers).

Quote:
There is no note about the church keeping sabbath and attending church meetings in anything near or close to the references that refer to the first day of the week that distinctly mention the church and the first day. Why don't we read the church gathered the seventh day? The church gathered Sabbath? We only read of Paul reaching Jews in synagogues on sabbath, and nothing about the actual church being directed and/or said to do things on the first day.
Actually there is a ton of "note" but antisabbatarians ignore it. The mere fact the New Testament thoroughly and consistently refers to the seventh day of the week as "the Sabbath" says a lot. Especially considering non Sabbath keepers don't speak that way unless they are arguing against the Sabbath. The faulty premise underlying all these errors is "if it isn't spelled out in the NT it didn't happen and is not applicable." But this is backwards not only to logic but the NT itself. The proper approach is "unless the NT says otherwise all things remain in place."

Quote:
If the two references in Acts 20 and 1 Cor 16 were not about church gatherings on the first day, they're still distinctly for the church and on the first day, and nothing similar can be found about sabbath for the church to offset the lean toward First Day worship. It's always only Paul preaching to jews on the sabbath.

It's far too vague to use anything in the New Testament to promote sabbath keeping. Like so many other beliefs, if that were the case there would have been much more elaboration made about it in the epistles and Acts than there is, if it were true.
If the Sabbath had been abrogated or replaced, it would create just as much if not more controversy than the issue of circumcision and the Levitical offerings. Those latter two disputes are detailed thoroughly throughout the NT. The supposed abrogation or modification of the Sabbath? Crickets. Ergo, you have it backwards. The lack of Sabbath polemics in the NT is prima facie evidence it wasn't a debated issue.
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  #26  
Old 12-23-2019, 10:09 PM
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Re: Why Sunday

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
That "whatever reason" was the pro-Sunday anti-Sabbath position of the Church of Rome being enforced throughout catholicism until it was official Holy Tradition, then being continued by Protestants who sought to divorce it from Holy Tradition and Magisterium by concocting "Sabbath transference" theories interpreting the fourth commandment as applicable to Sunday, followed by evangelical Protestants and Pentecostals not wanting to go against the tide of both religious and secular tradition.
I agree some people do it for that reason. But it's not the only one. Multitudes of people believe like me that there is no more holy days and that the Lord arose Sunday, Jesus showed Thomas his wounds Sunday, Paul preached Sunday, and Paul collected offerings Sunday. Not a holy day, no better day than any other. But linked to spiritual events with a spiritual message of the first day -- new creation, not old creation's seventh day.
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  #27  
Old 12-23-2019, 10:12 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
If the Sabbath had been abrogated or replaced, it would create just as much if not more controversy than the issue of circumcision and the Levitical offerings. Those latter two disputes are detailed thoroughly throughout the NT. The supposed abrogation or modification of the Sabbath? Crickets. Ergo, you have it backwards. The lack of Sabbath polemics in the NT is prima facie evidence it wasn't a debated issue.
There is much more in Galatians 4 which has always been my main argument as you know. The antecedent for the tutors and governors under which Israel, in times before Christ came, were taught is not pagan calendar days but Gal 3's refernec et law as a schoolmaster.

That alone seals it for me, and these other references are strong supports, far more than there is anything for sabbath day worship of the early church. Far more.
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  #28  
Old 12-23-2019, 10:17 PM
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Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I agree some people do it for that reason. But it's not the only one. Multitudes of people believe like me that there is no more holy days and that the Lord arose Sunday, Jesus showed Thomas his wounds Sunday, Paul preached Sunday, and Paul collected offerings Sunday. Not a holy day, no better day than any other. But linked to spiritual events with a spiritual message of the first day -- new creation, not old creation's seventh day.
Without realising it, you are arguing for Sunday sacredness. Spiritual significance... that's why we gather every single Sunday to corporately worship God... Friend, that is the very essence of "holy day keeping".

As for new creation, the Sabbath is part of the new heavens and new earth (Isaiah 66:22-23).
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  #29  
Old 12-23-2019, 10:19 PM
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Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
There is much more in Galatians 4 which has always been my main argument as you know. The antecedent for the tutors and governors under which Israel, in times before Christ came, were taught is not pagan calendar days but Gal 3's refernec et law as a schoolmaster.

That alone seals it for me, and these other references are strong supports, far more than there is anything for sabbath day worship of the early church. Far more.
If the law as a tutor means the 4th commandment need not be obeyed once one becomes a Christian, then not only may the Christian dispense with Sabbath keeping, but they may dispense with every other commandment of God as well, for exactly the same reason.
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  #30  
Old 12-23-2019, 10:35 PM
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Re: Why Sunday

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Without realising it, you are arguing for Sunday sacredness. Spiritual significance... that's why we gather every single Sunday to corporately worship God... Friend, that is the very essence of "holy day keeping".

As for new creation, the Sabbath is part of the new heavens and new earth (Isaiah 66:22-23).
We talked abut this before. God does not require me to go to church sabbath or Sunday. That's the bottom line.

Arguing about what you assume my belief leads to, or it's alleged logical conclusion that I don't engage in, is not actually dealing with what I believe.
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