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  #151  
Old 12-28-2019, 10:06 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Whether you keep Friday, Saturday, Sunday, or non day, you have to admit that there is no teaching against the sabbath found in the ten commandments. Jesus didn't make it an issue. If I wasn't so ignored on this website you would all know what I believe. But all my posts are cherry picked and therefore I repeat myself.
But again it's not an issue of speaking against sabbath. It is against keeping the shadow and not moving into the body of Christ instead.

And, I'd like to ask sabbath keepers if I am lost for not keeping the sabbath day.
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  #152  
Old 12-28-2019, 10:11 PM
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Re: Why Sunday

Anyone hear of the pineapple express?

While you're thinking on that, just wanted to say that my book on sabbath-keeping is almost done. 300 plus pages so far.
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  #153  
Old 12-28-2019, 10:14 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Why? It certainly we are not given any indication that it was to be nullified in the future.
Oh but we are! Paul said so. This is why I asked if you believe it is ever supposed to end. You didn’t answer until now.


2 Corinthians 3

[13] And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
[14] But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

When Moses wore the veil, this is Paul’s interpretation of him doing so. It was so that the children of Israel could not see the end of that which is (present tense) abolished. Moses had just received the law. (He had the tablets in his hand still, apparently). The law was (according to Paul) going to be abolished. Hence Moses wore the veil.
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  #154  
Old 12-28-2019, 10:25 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
No, but it also does not prove Jesus meant for his church to keep the sabbath day either.
But it sure doesn't prove that Jesus was at some time remove one command out of the commandments. Again, no matter what day you want or don't want you can't use that verse to prove no sabbath.


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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
It merely meant it was law in that day to travel far on sabbath, and it applied to those who did not keep sabbath as well.
If a sabbath was some trivial thing of a bygone time, why would you care? A Sabbath journey? Why would anyone care if it no longer pertained to them?

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Sabbath was the only commandment that was explicitly stated to have been a shadow of the body of Christ, not forbiddance to murder, or forbiddance against committing adultery.
I understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't extrapolate one command out of the rest forbiddiances. To say it does, doesn't settle the argument. It just leaves a gaping hole.



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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Jesus knew when destruction was coming to the city. He knew it would give rise for them to flee while sabbath day journey law in Jerusalem was imposed on everyone in the city, not just sabbath keepers.
That is only for the locking of the gates. A journey was all on you. You didn't have any police to pull you over once you got outside the walls.


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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post

And sabbath was to culminate as well as COl clearly says.



That's not the meaning of legalist in the sense we are accustomed to. Legalism means without those things being done one is lost, when Lev 18:5 said keeping the law justifies one to not be lost. Paul contrasted Lev 18:5 with the grace of Christ. Ask sabbath keepers if we're lost if we do notkeep sabbath.
We are lost through our thoughts leaving Christ, nothing else. Legalism rises and falls on the legalist and the antinomian alike. Both are focused on the same thing, RELIGION. They are both led by the letter, not by the Spirit.


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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post

Actually Paul did indeed teach them to not keep holy days, months and years, and that was not a change of calendars but context shows law was over as far as being a schoolmaster with its feasts and holy days was concerned.
Pluralities aren't what we are talking about. We are talking about one day at the end of the week. Paul didn't speak a prohibition or an ignorance against it. Sorry. I am not seeing anywhere he did. Again, whether you believe in sabbath keeping or not, the argument has to be a strong one, and just saying something was taught against when it clearly wasn't isn't a strong argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post

Jesus taught all of the commandments except sabbath. And when he mentioned sabbath he referred to coming to him, not a day of the week for sabbath. Becuase it was a shadow when the others weren't. So those who rest in Christ are the real sabbath keepers not the ones today who keep the seventh day.
You read where I discuss the rest and Jesus, and compare to Moses' yoke. But Jesus didn't teach not to keep the sabbath. He kept it, and He explained why it came to be.


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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post

Like I've said to Esaias many many times, the day is now a spiritual fulfillment that we do keep. It's truly keeping sabbath when we experience its antitype and go beyond the mere physical day.
Agreed, still we have no where the sabbath found in Exodus is done away with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
It's so plainly stated in Gal 4 and Rom 14 that one has to go through hoops to say otherwise.
Honestly the hoops are being jumped by those who claim the commandment sabbath is done away with. Again, whether you keep a sabbath or not, Col and Romans isn't helping the argument. Because Paul isn't referring to that sabbath.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Esaias believes that he doesn't have to go to Jerusalem in the middle east in order to keep the feasts that he believes he must keep. He says this because he feels New Jerusalem is everywhere and the old is culminated, as you put it. But that is inconsistent, because the sabbath day is also culminated.

And sabbath is part of Mosaic law for Israel.

Never before Moses was any man commanded to keep sabbath.
Never before Moses was anything written down in hammurabi law form. The first commands were given in Sinai. All other commands come later because these people were the worst of all people. Hard heartedness made the rule book get bigger. Yet, through Christ the rule book goes, but the moral law stays. Also we are discussing Esaias, so please lets refrain from doing so, ok?
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  #155  
Old 12-28-2019, 10:29 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
But again it's not an issue of speaking against sabbath. It is against keeping the shadow and not moving into the body of Christ instead.

And, I'd like to ask sabbath keepers if I am lost for not keeping the sabbath day.
You were reading all my posts in the beginning? You amened, you thumbed up, and now we are talking about sabbath keepers? Again, whether or not you keep a day, or not keep a day, there is no doing away with the commandments. They were all moral. From honor God and no other God, to honor sabbath and honor God with it. It is that simple. Do you understand why I reposted your post from the eschatology section? Can you tell me why I did that?
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  #156  
Old 12-28-2019, 10:35 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

The bottom line as I see it, and my signature displays, is that I am complete in Christ alone. I need not add sabbath days to Christ, especially when Christ is the body that cast the shadow of sabbath days back in time. And to tell someone they are lost if they do not keep sabbath is removing them from a complete position in Christ. Fullness of the Godhead in Christ is not so much talking about Father, Son and Holy Ghost as it is talking about everything we need from God being in Christ. Saying that being in Christ means we lack something and have to ALSO keep sabbath to be saved is spoiling us from Christ.

Context of Colossians 1 through 2 is focusing on how God chose that in Christ should all the fullness dwell.

Colossians 1:19.. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

That's what fullness of the Godhead is talking about.

Colossians 1:20-23.. And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. ..(21).. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled ..(22).. In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: ..(23).. If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

If we continue IN HIM and not be removed by thinking it's not enough for our righteousness to be in HIm, apart from keeping days or any other deeds, then we remain holy.

Paul sought to see everyone he ministered to remain solid and perfect and complete in Him.

Colossians 1:28.. Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Those who feel we're lost without keeping sabbath are weak in the faith that in Christ we are complete, and Christ was foreshadowed by the sabbath and all other rites from Law.

The obvious reference to law as elements or rudiments of the world is patently denied by sabbath keepers as if it was something else, when elements and rudiments clearly mean basal and necessary principles from God for greater more spiritual things.

Colossians 2:8-9.. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. ..(9).. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


And after we read this, we see a distinct reference to every sabbath that exists in a natural physical day.

Colossians 2:14-17.. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; ..(15).. And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. ..(16).. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: ..(17).. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

There can be no way in which those verses are speaking about people keeping sabbath days and meant to keep them, and being told to not let anyone discourage them, after being told what all of the verses beforehand said. It's saying they were wrong to keep them because they had not yet come to the full understanding of deliverance from Law, and therefore are weak in faith.

Paul said Law, not a pharisaical distortion, as confirmed in Gal 3:12's reference to Lev 18:5, puts one under a curse. The reasoning is that if one thinks ONE MUST keep tenets of law then one must keep ALL of them without fail or die.

Hebrews 9 was likewise not referring to a pharisaical tradition of Law when it said that all the rites and ceremonies were done away with in the reformation of the new covenant.

Hebrews 9:10.. Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Sabbath day was a carnal ordinance, an element of the world with the sense of world being temporal and passing away, since it was a shadow.

Exo_18:20.. And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

Lev_18:3.. After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

Lev_18:4.. Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 18:5.. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

Paul spoke of genuine Mosaic law:

Romans 7:6.. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Law incites sin because it's pushing us to act in the flesh by forcing mere will power on our own flesh to do good, without any work fo the Spirit.

Romans 6:14.. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Since law commanded Paul to not covet, and Paul suddenly found himself coveting, he noted God delivered us from law so that reaction does not cause him to sin and instead he walks after the Spirit in faith to see that righteousness that law tried to instill within man, fulfilled.

Brethren, to me it's weakening people's faith. It's not sinning, but it does weaken faith.

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  #157  
Old 12-28-2019, 10:38 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
You were reading all my posts in the beginning? You amened, you thumbed up, and now we are talking about sabbath keepers? Again, whether or not you keep a day, or not keep a day, there is no doing away with the commandments. They were all moral. From honor God and no other God, to honor sabbath and honor God with it. It is that simple. Do you understand why I reposted your post from the eschatology section? Can you tell me why I did that?
I amened what I agreed with, though you may have had an implication under it that you did not clarify.

But my post stated that Israel alone had to keep sabbaths because it cannot work in the entire world. Then you said something about agreeing that it's a spiritual rest that can be fulfilled all over the world instead of just regions where the days can be kept. At least that's the thought I got from your post.
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  #158  
Old 12-28-2019, 10:46 PM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

Has our actual calendar changed since the Sabbath was instituted? Is there a spiritual Sabbath rest? Can the Sabbath be kept in principal rather than literally?
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  #159  
Old 12-28-2019, 10:53 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
But it sure doesn't prove that Jesus was at some time remove one command out of the commandments. Again, no matter what day you want or don't want you can't use that verse to prove no sabbath.
I never claimed Matt 24 proves sabbath is over, though.

Quote:

If a sabbath was some trivial thing of a bygone time, why would you care? A Sabbath journey? Why would anyone care if it no longer pertained to them?

I understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't extrapolate one command out of the rest forbiddiances. To say it does, doesn't settle the argument. It just leaves a gaping hole.

That is only for the locking of the gates. A journey was all on you. You didn't have any police to pull you over once you got outside the walls.
If the gates are closed you cannot flee.

Quote:

We are lost through our thoughts leaving Christ, nothing else. Legalism rises and falls on the legalist and the antinomian alike. Both are focused on the same thing, RELIGION. They are both led by the letter, not by the Spirit.
When our thoughts require us to keep a day or be lost,then we've been removed from Christ.

Quote:
Pluralities aren't what we are talking about. We are talking about one day at the end of the week. Paul didn't speak a prohibition or an ignorance against it. Sorry. I am not seeing anywhere he did. Again, whether you believe in sabbath keeping or not, the argument has to be a strong one, and just saying something was taught against when it clearly wasn't isn't a strong argument.
Pluralities covers all sabbaths. Weekly ones, annual ones, jubilees, etc. SO seventh day was included.

Quote:
You read where I discuss the rest and Jesus, and compare to Moses' yoke. But Jesus didn't teach not to keep the sabbath. He kept it, and He explained why it came to be.
More vitally Jesus did not demand they keep it. He was also under law during his ministry. Law was not gone til the cross, even for Him.

Quote:
Agreed, still we have no where the sabbath found in Exodus is done away with.
I would only repeat myself, but when he said Sabbaths in COl 2 that's enough for me. The simplest read means any form of sabbath.

Quote:
Honestly the hoops are being jumped by those who claim the commandment sabbath is done away with. Again, whether you keep a sabbath or not, Col and Romans isn't helping the argument. Because Paul isn't referring to that sabbath.
I honestly cannot see how he is not referring to the sabbath.

Quote:
Never before Moses was anything written down in hammurabi law form. The first commands were given in Sinai. All other commands come later because these people were the worst of all people. Hard heartedness made the rule book get bigger. Yet, through Christ the rule book goes, but the moral law stays. Also we are discussing Esaias, so please lets refrain from doing so, ok?
We read about God resting the seventh day, and the word could easily have been added that man must therefore rest, too. But man Israel never hear do fit until Moses spoke of manna collection.

My reference to Esaias was not making him any focus, but just a reference since he made a point that I saw as inconsistent, since you mentioned inconsistency, focusing on parts of law being fulfilled and not others of the same nature.

So I was not discussing him. I could have avoided his name but it would have sounded more like a slur if I said someone told me about new Jerusalem being spiritual but not sabbath day.
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  #160  
Old 12-28-2019, 10:55 PM
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Re: Why Sunday

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Has our actual calendar changed since the Sabbath was instituted? Is there a spiritual Sabbath rest? Can the Sabbath be kept in principal rather than literally?
There most certainly is a spiritual rest, which is what Hebrews 4 is all about.
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