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  #61  
Old 10-12-2019, 03:49 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

I just wanted to add that the express image of is person is not an entity but a fact that it is relevant to us because the disciples and people got to walk with Jesus and know him.
Michael I see your point and arguments and logic but I think the flaw in the reasoning is the conclusion that because the angel of the Lord was the means of visual manifestation of God and the Son of God was also the visible image (and person) of God, and it is also associated with creation then the Angel of the Lord must be what they referred to regarding the Son of God involved in creation.

Last edited by coksiw; 10-12-2019 at 05:37 PM.
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  #62  
Old 10-12-2019, 05:29 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

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Why did Paul teach the Son made the ages? Well I got that from Paul the Apostle. He was teaching it. So I believed it. He does not go into any deeper explanation. He says God made the worlds or ages by his Son.

He tells us in Col. 1 that his Son as the image of the invisible God made ALL THINGS.

He made the ages and everything else according to Paul.

Why am I using it?

Well because its Paul teaching it. Why was HE USING IT?

If HE didnt say God made all things by Jesus Christ, if HE did not say all things were made by his Son I would not be teaching it.

My point is to reconcile the scriptures.

The Bible teaches God made all things. The Bible teaches the Logos made all things. The Bible teaches the Son made all things.

All these statements are true. None of them are wrong. They must be tied together in such a way they are all true.
Mike, are you having a LeDeay moment? You didn't tell me anything. Did you not understand the question? Or are you incapable of answering the question? God made all things by His word, including the ages. What does that mean? You say, "are all these statements true," this means what? Do I believe the prophets and apostles? Yes. Do I believe the verses? Yes. Do I believe your conclusions? No. Jesus made all things Mike because Paul is telling us that Jesus is God. No separation. God's expressed image isn't feet and hands, He was already described in that fashion throughout the OT. His image is who HE is. Creating man to be as He is holy, and set apart. Man ends up failing that, and therefore getting seperated towards being unholy. But, please explain what are the "worlds" plural, or ages which were created by the logos.
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  #63  
Old 10-12-2019, 08:09 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

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coksiw

Michael I see your point and arguments and logic but I think the flaw in the reasoning is the conclusion that because the angel of the Lord was the means of visual manifestation of God and the Son of God was also the visible image (and person) of God, and it is also associated with creation then the Angel of the Lord must be what they referred to regarding the Son of God involved in creation.
Consider this. In the Septuigent LXX Greek Old Testament Isaiah 9:6 is very different than the Hebrew. There are those who think it is the original and inspired Bible.

In the LXX online version Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince Of Peace are non exist.

They are replaced by THE ANGEL OF GREAT COUNSEL.

The Septuagint (LXX) renders Isaiah 9:6 as reading the Angel of Great Counsel. Brenton’s translation is:

For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

Angel and Messenger are synonomous.

If indeed and IMO its a BIG IF, The LXX were older and more accurate than the Masorite Text we use the Messiah is plainly the Angel Of The Lord.

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 10-12-2019 at 08:17 PM.
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  #64  
Old 10-12-2019, 08:15 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Do JW believe that the Logos was Jehovah? No they do not.

Do Oneness who believe God had a spiritual form-body in the OT believe the Logos was Jehovah?

Yes they do.
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  #65  
Old 10-12-2019, 09:05 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Thats funny, Paul never said that.

He said this:

Heb. 1:1-3

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

So Paul said what HE said not what YOU said he said

Matter of fact it is the same thing he told the Ephesians.

Ephesians 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Note it says the same thing as Hebrews 1:3.

Im afraid modern Oneness has boxed itself into a concept that must reinvent the words of a true Apostle.

No need to be afraid tho.
No need to be condescending and "cute" either. Nobody is afraid.

Paul said God made everything by Jesus Christ. But Jesus Christ is a man born of the virgin, and therefore SON. Sonship does not refer to preincarnate Deity, every Oneness believer knows that. This is where you and the trinitarians err. God did not make everything by means of ANOTHER, which is what you have if you would follow your own reasoning out. Isaiah quotes Jehovah saying He made all things BY HIMSELF WITH HIS OWN HANDS.

Since Jesus Christ did not exist before the incarnation AS JESUS CHRIST, but AS JEHOVAH, it necessarily follows that Paul is not saying God made anything by means of another. As if the Father told the Son "make all this stuff". That is straight up JW and trinitarian belief, and that is straight up what you are leading to. Rather, God creating all things "by Jesus Christ" means that Christ - the SON, the virgin-born Man from Galilee - is the one "by" whom He made everything. Which requires "by" to mean something other than through the agency of another, otherwise you have two gods plain and simple.

So what can it mean? It can only mean "in reference to". Why? Because Christ is the incarnate LOGOS of God, which logos does NOT mean skin-suit but instead means WORD, both the expression of a mental concept and the mental concept itself that is being expressed. The Logos includes within its definition the PLAN AND IDEA, the BLUEPRINT or form, by which, through which, because of, according to, and in reference to which God made everything.

Paul had no doctrine of a preincarnate SON, that is a later 2nd and 3rd century development in catholic theology, borrowing from gnostic ideas about emanations and divine mediators.

The Logos or Word certainly is the "form of God", but not as a separate created thing like an impersonal space suit. When you or anyone thinks "God" there is a FORM that you conceive of. Not a physical shape, but a DEFINED THING, a CONCEPT that is represented by the term "God". That CONCEPT is the FORM or LIKENESS of the idea represented by the term "God".

It is not a secondary thing created by the concept, it IS the concept. It is also WITH the concept, it pertains to it, they cannot be separated.

Just so is God and His Word. God interacting with mankind or angelkind is by or through His Word - NOT as by or through an intermediary entity or speakerphone or space suit - but by HIS SELF REVELATION OF HIS OWN LIKENESS AND FORM, God revealing His character and person to others.

The PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION of the Word - such as the flesh and muscle and bone Jacob wrestled with, the smoke and fire of the pillar in the wilderness, or the actual sound of the still small voice (the actual physical vibrations in the air) - are not the extent of the Word. I think you are reducing the logos to those mere physical phenomena, and really grasping that the Word isn't a thing, it's a WHO: Jehovah God, who at a point in time became a genuine human being.
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  #66  
Old 10-12-2019, 09:42 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
If indeed and IMO its a BIG IF, The LXX were older and more accurate than the Masorite Text we use the Messiah is plainly the Angel Of The Lord.
Mike, the LXX is older by 1,000 years.

The Masoretic text doesn't even match the Dead Sea Scrolls which date back to the first century A.D.. Maybe you don't realize that the Masoretic text was put together around the same time as the Quran?
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  #67  
Old 10-12-2019, 09:46 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
No need to be condescending and "cute" either. Nobody is afraid.

Paul said God made everything by Jesus Christ. But Jesus Christ is a man born of the virgin, and therefore SON. Sonship does not refer to preincarnate Deity, every Oneness believer knows that. This is where you and the trinitarians err. God did not make everything by means of ANOTHER, which is what you have if you would follow your own reasoning out. Isaiah quotes Jehovah saying He made all things BY HIMSELF WITH HIS OWN HANDS.

Since Jesus Christ did not exist before the incarnation AS JESUS CHRIST, but AS JEHOVAH, it necessarily follows that Paul is not saying God made anything by means of another. As if the Father told the Son "make all this stuff". That is straight up JW and trinitarian belief, and that is straight up what you are leading to. Rather, God creating all things "by Jesus Christ" means that Christ - the SON, the virgin-born Man from Galilee - is the one "by" whom He made everything. Which requires "by" to mean something other than through the agency of another, otherwise you have two gods plain and simple.

So what can it mean? It can only mean "in reference to". Why? Because Christ is the incarnate LOGOS of God, which logos does NOT mean skin-suit but instead means WORD, both the expression of a mental concept and the mental concept itself that is being expressed. The Logos includes within its definition the PLAN AND IDEA, the BLUEPRINT or form, by which, through which, because of, according to, and in reference to which God made everything.

Paul had no doctrine of a preincarnate SON, that is a later 2nd and 3rd century development in catholic theology, borrowing from gnostic ideas about emanations and divine mediators.

The Logos or Word certainly is the "form of God", but not as a separate created thing like an impersonal space suit. When you or anyone thinks "God" there is a FORM that you conceive of. Not a physical shape, but a DEFINED THING, a CONCEPT that is represented by the term "God". That CONCEPT is the FORM or LIKENESS of the idea represented by the term "God".

It is not a secondary thing created by the concept, it IS the concept. It is also WITH the concept, it pertains to it, they cannot be separated.

Just so is God and His Word. God interacting with mankind or angelkind is by or through His Word - NOT as by or through an intermediary entity or speakerphone or space suit - but by HIS SELF REVELATION OF HIS OWN LIKENESS AND FORM, God revealing His character and person to others.

The PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION of the Word - such as the flesh and muscle and bone Jacob wrestled with, the smoke and fire of the pillar in the wilderness, or the actual sound of the still small voice (the actual physical vibrations in the air) - are not the extent of the Word. I think you are reducing the logos to those mere physical phenomena, and really grasping that the Word isn't a thing, it's a WHO: Jehovah God, who at a point in time became a genuine human being.
Now that is Apostolic.

Sorry Mike you are as Oneness as Charles Taze Russell, Judge Rutherford, and Frederick William Franz.
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  #68  
Old 10-12-2019, 09:49 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Do JW believe that the Logos was Jehovah? No they do not.

Do Oneness who believe God had a spiritual form-body in the OT believe the Logos was Jehovah?

Yes they do.
Gee Haw Ws believe that the logos just the way you do bruh. He is a god.

I guess you are still Jesus Movement like Moses David Berg, but with clothes on.
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  #69  
Old 10-12-2019, 10:36 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Mike, the LXX is older by 1,000 years.

The Masoretic text doesn't even match the Dead Sea Scrolls which date back to the first century A.D.. Maybe you don't realize that the Masoretic text was put together around the same time as the Quran?
So is the Messiah the Angel Of The Lord?

The Angel Of Great Counsel?
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  #70  
Old 10-12-2019, 10:41 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Gee Haw Ws believe that the logos just the way you do bruh. He is a god.

I guess you are still Jesus Movement like Moses David Berg, but with clothes on.
Dom, No need to start making things up. If Jehovah Witness agree with my doctrine that Jesus is the Everlasting Father, The begotten Son, and the Holy Ghost I would certainly claim them as Oneness.

But you know what I teach is far from what they teach as to Jesus Christ.

As to the Jesus Movement I will always be in it.
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