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  #71  
Old 10-12-2019, 11:12 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
So is the Messiah the Angel Of The Lord?

The Angel Of Great Counsel?
Mike, Jerome translated the Septuagint into Latin in the 4th century A.D.

Parvulus enim natus est nobis, et filius datus est nobis, et factus est principatus super humerum ejus: et vocabitur nomen ejus, Admirabilis, Consiliarius, Deus, Fortis, Pater futuri saeculi, Princeps pacis. It was brought to my attention by Brother Esaias years ago in a discussion with you that the Alexandrian Codex had Isaiah 9:6 as it appears in our Bibles today. This was one of your pet peeves against the LXX which you would always bring up to defend your Hebrewphila. I too also accepted the Brenton as the go to translation until Esaias brought the Alexandrinus to my attention. I started to study the whole thing out. I met another brother who showed me that the Latin Vulgate was a translation from the Septuagint, and therefore Jerome had a copy in Greek which used the Isaiah 9:6.

But back to the Brenton's translation in English. Mike, the Hebrew Bible uses the word malak for messenger, angel. Did Jezebel send an Angel to Elijah in 1 Kings 19:2? We find that the Prophet Haggai is called The Angel of the Lord in Haggai 1:13. In Luke 7:24 did John the Baptist send literal Angelic beings to Jesus? Mike, Angel of Great Council doesn't mean a angelic being.

Do yourself a favor, don't take this to your local Trinitarian ministers to try to convert them. Because you will find you aren't far from what they believe.
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  #72  
Old 10-12-2019, 11:17 PM
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

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Dom, No need to start making things up. If Jehovah Witness agree with my doctrine that Jesus is the Everlasting Father, The begotten Son, and the Holy Ghost I would certainly claim them as Oneness.

But you know what I teach is far from what they teach as to Jesus Christ.

As to the Jesus Movement I will always be in it.
I am not making anything up. You can say you are Oneness all day and night. You can say that you believe Jesus is the everlasting Father, from noon to dusk. But hoss, you are more inline with a Jehovah's Witnesses overseer, then you do with the Apostle Paul.

You will always be in the hippy Jesus movement? Grow up already.
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  #73  
Old 10-12-2019, 11:21 PM
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200004625#h=31
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  #74  
Old 10-12-2019, 11:44 PM
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

Oh my...
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  #75  
Old 10-13-2019, 12:00 AM
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
One of the reasons thoughtful JWs are so fascinated by apostolic Oneness teaching. They are thoroughly famiar with trinity concepts. Explaining Oneness to them is like showing them an entirely new approach they'd never thought of.

Of course, some JWs are internet savvy and are acquainted with Oneness, and try to argue against it.

The sad thing is that both basic JW Christology/theology and trinitarian Christology/theology are cheap ripoffs of authentic Biblical Oneness truth.

(I say basic JW theology because there is the more advanced stuff usually only the old timers know about, like that Jesus Christ is the only human guaranteed NEVER to experience resurrection, that the Archangel Michael was recreated in Jesus' likeness and uses His Name today, etc...)
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  #76  
Old 10-13-2019, 05:13 AM
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Dom,

Their doctrine is not the Apostles doctrine nor mine. Where I agree with them in a doctrine I am not ashamed to say so. For example they teach best I can tell the doctrine that men actually die and have hope of resurrection.

Most "Apostolics" teach men live on as immortal souls without the need of a resurrection.

In this the JW teaches more truth than the modern day Apostolic.

So to me truth is truth. I follow Jesus and his word.

If I taught what JW teaches on the Godhead I would say so and I would not have spent my last 39 years battling with them and the Trins about who Jesus is.
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Old 10-13-2019, 05:25 AM
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
I am not making anything up. You can say you are Oneness all day and night. You can say that you believe Jesus is the everlasting Father, from noon to dusk. But hoss, you are more inline with a Jehovah's Witnesses overseer, then you do with the Apostle Paul.

You will always be in the hippy Jesus movement? Grow up already.
I saw more zeal and gifts of the Spirit among the Jesus Movement than I have among the modern Apostolics. I really hate that in a way. I am a Oneness Pentecostal myself.

But I cannot but say what I have seen and heard.

The Jesus Movement as a movement ultimately failed as a movement. The modern Oneness movement started with a bang but apparently had its best days before I came in contact with it.

Oneness TRUTH obviously is the same as it always has been from the beginning. But as a MOVEMENT much truth has been presented and rejected.

As my heart will always be with the Jesus movement it will always be with the Oneness movement. Nonetheless the search for a real fully manifested New Testament Church goes on.
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  #78  
Old 10-13-2019, 06:11 AM
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Mike, Jerome translated the Septuagint into Latin in the 4th century A.D.

Parvulus enim natus est nobis, et filius datus est nobis, et factus est principatus super humerum ejus: et vocabitur nomen ejus, Admirabilis, Consiliarius, Deus, Fortis, Pater futuri saeculi, Princeps pacis. It was brought to my attention by Brother Esaias years ago in a discussion with you that the Alexandrian Codex had Isaiah 9:6 as it appears in our Bibles today. This was one of your pet peeves against the LXX which you would always bring up to defend your Hebrewphila. I too also accepted the Brenton as the go to translation until Esaias brought the Alexandrinus to my attention. I started to study the whole thing out. I met another brother who showed me that the Latin Vulgate was a translation from the Septuagint, and therefore Jerome had a copy in Greek which used the Isaiah 9:6.

But back to the Brenton's translation in English. Mike, the Hebrew Bible uses the word malak for messenger, angel. Did Jezebel send an Angel to Elijah in 1 Kings 19:2? We find that the Prophet Haggai is called The Angel of the Lord in Haggai 1:13. In Luke 7:24 did John the Baptist send literal Angelic beings to Jesus? Mike, Angel of Great Council doesn't mean a angelic being.

Do yourself a favor, don't take this to your local Trinitarian ministers to try to convert them. Because you will find you aren't far from what they believe.
I recall once seeing an LXX version that contained all of whats in the Masorite text PLUS the Angel Of Great Counsel I'm pretty sure.

Since then I have not seen a version that read that way. I do remember the discussion with Esaias on this and it seems I asked him to post the verse that contained it all.

So now I will ask you to post the one you are talking about. It will help me in my ongoing studies.

As far as malak being synonomous between angel and messenger if you recall I noted that in my post.

You are going the same direction as when one says EL is not only used as the Supreme being but also of men. So when they see El Gibbor in Isaiah 9:6 they say its not referring to God at all but a man in the first century.

IF......the LXX was inspired as opposed to the Masorite text and malak just means a man who is a messenger it has just ripped the heart out of the doctrine of Christ.
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  #79  
Old 10-13-2019, 07:41 AM
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
I recall once seeing an LXX version that contained all of whats in the Masorite text PLUS the Angel Of Great Counsel I'm pretty sure.

Since then I have not seen a version that read that way. I do remember the discussion with Esaias on this and it seems I asked him to post the verse that contained it all.

So now I will ask you to post the one you are talking about. It will help me in my ongoing studies.

As far as malak being synonomous between angel and messenger if you recall I noted that in my post.

You are going the same direction as when one says EL is not only used as the Supreme being but also of men. So when they see El Gibbor in Isaiah 9:6 they say its not referring to God at all but a man in the first century.

IF......the LXX was inspired as opposed to the Masorite text and malak just means a man who is a messenger it has just ripped the heart out of the doctrine of Christ.
Mike, LXX was inspired opposed to the Masoretic text? Seriously? Mike, do you believe like Elder James LeDeay, that the New Testament was originally written in Hebrew and that we only have some hellenized copy today? Mike, Jesus and His apostles QUOTE the Septuagint. Out of the 300 quotes of the Old Testament about 2/3rds are LXX. Mike, you are so Hebrewed you walk off in a confusing path. This path can only cause you problems in a Bible study, when you (1) have super intelligent inquiries, (2) they are armed to the teeth with IPads and Smartphones. They actually look things up while you are teaching. Therefore you need to have your good stuff together.

In Isaiah 9:5(6)b

there is a clear variant between Greek-Isaiah and the Hebrew of the MT-Isaiah. The naming of the messianic figure in the Masoretic Text (MT) reads “and his name shall be called wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting father, prince of peace.” Alternatively,according to the vast majority of Greek manuscripts, and the resulting composite text of Joseph Ziegler in the Göttingen Septuaginta, the translation reads “and he will call his name messenger of Great Counsel.” It is evident in the Greek text of Isaiah that the honorific titles of the messianic figure have been left out for a simpler description of his role. However, the fifth century manuscript, Codex-Alexandrinus is a Greek-Isaiah text that retains the divine titles in close harmony to the Hebrew text of MT-Isaiah. In the rest of this paper, I plan to focus my investigation on Codex A as a highly regarded witness of the Greek Scriptures and ask why it stands alone as the only Greek-Isaiah manuscript that gives witness to the honorific titles of the messiah.
https://www.academia.edu/38246158/Mo...x_Alexandrinus

There are facsimiles of the British Museum Codex Alexandrinus on line.
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  #80  
Old 10-13-2019, 07:47 AM
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Re: Logos Doctrine And The UPC

Also, thank you Esaias for you alerting me to the Codex Alexandrinus.
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