Quote:
Originally Posted by aegsm76
Now, as to pastors:
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
I am sure that I am not going to change your mind on this topic.
And you are not going to change mine either.
However, I believe that we are closer to agreement, than you may think.
My concern with your words (tone is hard to extract) is that you "seem" to have some issue with pastors in general.
I have encountered several others with the same issue.
Many of them eventually left apostolic churches and started their own house church.
Without fail, everyone of them has lost their family.
Even if the parents stayed together, the children have lost the message.
God Bless
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Okay. Let’s address the passages in Hebrews that you have quoted.
First and most obvious is that the word pastor is never mentioned in these passages. I’m not going to pretend to be naive, I’m aware of the interpretation that you are using here. You believe this passage refers to pastors. In your mind pastors and rulers are synonymous. I am convinced that you are wrong. You are not alone. Many pastors claim authority based on these passages and many husbands cede their God given authority to pastors based on a corrupt interpretation of these passages. So allow me to clarify what these verses mean, IMHO.
I’m going to begin in other books and will leave Hebrews for now. Don’t worry, I’ll be back.
I’ll begin with
Titus 3:1-2. This is Paul in a letter to Titus.
Tit.3
[1] Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
[2] To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
Paul instructs Titus to “put them in mind” to be subject to principalities and powers and magistrates. I think we can agree that this is not pastors. Of course, you didn’t reference this verse and I’m not implying that you did, I’m merely quoting it to establish context and note similarities to Hebrews. The epistle to Titus was written while he was n Crete. The reason that this bit of trivia is important, is to establish that, it was written primarily to Gentiles and not Jews, as Hebrews obviously was.
Next I will quote Paul’s letter to the Romans. Again, written by Paul and addressed to the Romans, who were mostly non-Jews, and this will be important to understanding the passage in Hebrews. Once again, you didn’t quote this passage.
Rom.13
[1] Let every
soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
[2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
[3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
[4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Notice that I bolded the word soul. I think this is the same context as souls in Hebrews. It doesn’t have the spiritual connotation that we sometimes ascribe today. In the Bible it most often meant life or lives in the plural sense.
Next allow me to quote Peter. Peter wrote this letter to the strangers, which was another word for Gentiles.
1Peter 2:
[13] Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
[14] Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
[15] For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
[16] As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
[17] Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
[18] Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
Once again, it is important to realize that Peter was giving instruction to the Gentiles, even though his ministry was primarily to the Jews. Of course Hebrews is written by Paul (maybe). We can assume that Hebrews is written by Paul, but we know that it is written to the Hebrews. Whether it is written by Paul is debatable. It is definitely written to the Hebrews (Jews) and definitely not to Gentiles (or strangers,aliens, etc.).
Now let me address why it is important to differentiate between instructions written to Jews, and how it is different from instructions written to Gentiles.
The Jews had a different form of government than any of the Gentiles. So it certainly would make sense that if this passage is written to Hebrews to instruct them to obey their rulers, as did the examples in Romans’ etc. it would sound a bit different than the instructions to the Gentiles.
Where I’m going with this is that it is imperative that we arrive at a meaning or description of who ruled the Jews. Because both passages refer to being obedient to they that rule over you.
So who ruled (or was a ruler of) the Jews? You believe it means pastor. I’m sure it doesn’t. One thing we will agree on is that it doesn’t say pastor. If it doesn’t say pastor, well it is quite possible that it doesn’t mean pastor. It doesn’t say it AND it doesn’t mean it.
It means what it says. It says what it means. Who could have ever guessed?
Who were the rulers of the Jews? The scripture tells us. And it isn’t pastors. Let me quote scripture.
John.3
[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
How ‘bout that? Nicodemus was a ruler of the Jews. Yes, that Nicodemus. The one who came to Jesus by night. He was a ruler of the Jews. And he was not a pastor. He was not even in the church. But he did rule the Jews. And he was not the only one.
Here is a generic reference to the rulers of the Jews.
John.7
[26] But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?
The question speaks for itself. The rulers (of the Jews) didn’t necessarily know who Jesus was. I’m going way out on a limb here, but they probably weren’t pastors in the church.
Luke.24
[20] And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
It was the rulers of the Jews that condemned Jesus to death. It was according to God’s plan, but these rulers were not pastors of the church. You see the Jews at this point, were conquered by the Romans. But the Romans allowed them to maintain their own (modified) government. One modification was that they couldn’t impose capital punishment. (Which is why they delivered Him to the Roman Authorities. They wanted Jesus killed and according to Roman law, they couldn’t go that far.)
[45] Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?
[46] The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.
[47] Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived?
[48] Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?
More rulers of the Jews who also weren’t pastors, or even believers.
So what about post upper room?
Acts 3
[17] And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
[18] But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
These rulers of the Jews were certainly not pastors.
Acts.4
[1] And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,
[2] Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
[3] And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
[4] Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
[5] And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes,
[6] And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.
[7] And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?
[8] Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
These rulers of the Jews, who were not pastors or even Christians, were giving the apostles a hard time for healing someone.
Hopefully you get the point. There are many more instances. The rulers of the Hebrews were not pastors. Pastors were not rulers of the Jews. This is a false teaching that has been going on for years. It’s so bad and people have been so thoroughly deceived, that if I come along telling the truth and backing it up with scripture, it is assumed that I don’t like pastors. I must have an attitude.
What else could it possibly be?
It just might be that I know the truth, and I want others to know the truth as well.
May God bless you as you consider this “new”
Information.
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