DA No Longer an OP

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

sam, what verse or veses do you use to believe that the holy spirit indwells at faith/repentance?

Ephesians 1:12-13 indicates that to me.
So does Galatians 3:24-29

So does Romans 8:1-4, 9 etc

Also verses like 1 John 5:1, 4-5, 9-13

If we are justified/saved/born again by faith (Romans 10:9-13; John 3:14-18, 36) it is my opinion that Jesus comes in to dwell as the Holy Spirit when we ask Him.

It is my opinion that the classic accounts used by three-steppers to teach that the Holy Ghost Baptism is the birth of the Spirit (Acts 2:1-4; 8:5-17, 26-40; 9:1-18; 10:34-48; 19:1-7) actually show the Holy Ghost Baptism to be an experience subsequent to and separate from justification/salvation/regeneration.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

sam, what verse or veses do you use to believe that the holy spirit indwells at faith/repentance?

Just out of curiosity, what evidence is there that you see that ties the current phenomena of "Speaking in Tongues" with the New Testament experience? In other words, why would you think that you have experienced "Acts 2:4" just like the apostles on the Day of Pentecost?

And if we can't really be certain that this is the same experience, why would we demand this as being the standard for salvation?

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I would love to see proof of that by the scriptures. The only place we can find out WHEN someone receives the Spirit is the book of Acts, as far as I can tell. The Spirit is given to those who have faith but the real question lies in WHEN it happens. Does it happen at faith? Frankly, I don't see any difference in the baptism of the Spirit and the initial indwelling of the Spirit.

1 John 4:14 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

galations 5 is fruit of the Spirit, which can be produced by anyone who God lives in whether they spoke in tounges or not.

again people do not seek God, God seeks them, and you couldnt even begin to acknowledge Jesus as your saviour unless the Spirit of the Lord was in you.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Just out of curiosity, what evidence is there that you see that ties the current phenomena of "Speaking in Tongues" with the New Testament experience? In other words, why would you think that you have experienced "Acts 2:4" just like the apostles on the Day of Pentecost?

And if we can't really be certain that this is the same experience, why would we demand this as being the standard for salvation?

some times hermenuetics can be a bad thing when used in the bible.
Paul also stats do all speak in tounges?
Do all prophesy?

of course the answer is No.

but since i know in one scripture were they both spoke in tounges and prophesied, maybe we should use hermenuetics to say well all people should speak in tounges and prophesy to show they have the spirit.

Ive seen people speak in tounges and live church in the next couple of services, and you dont see them or hear from them again

then i have seen some who have had a life changing experience, never speak in tounges but they labor for the lord, to a point its inspiring.

Now which would be more proof to you that they had the spirit.

Fruits is always a great way to tell, cause Jesus said a bad tree cannot produce good fruits

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by acerrak

some times hermenuetics can be a bad thing when used in the bible.
Paul also stats do all speak in tounges?
Do all prophesy?

of course the answer is No.

but since i know in one scripture were they both spoke in tounges and prophesied, maybe we should use hermenuetics to say well all people should speak in tounges and prophesy to show they have the spirit.

Ive seen people speak in tounges and live church in the next couple of services, and you dont see them or hear from them again

then i have seen some who have had a life changing experience, never speak in tounges but they labor for the lord, to a point its inspiring.

Now which would be more proof to you that they had the spirit.

Fruits is always a great way to tell, cause Jesus said a bad tree cannot produce good fruits

I think you've missed my point. Acts 2:4, gives a description of "speaking in tongues" that has never been recorded nor demonstrated to even exist since the time of the "Pentecostal Outpouring" which began in 1901.

I know that there are many - and even a couple on AFF - who say that they have heard this phenomena, but absolutely no one has any real evidence that it has ever really taken place... and that's remarkable given how wide spread "speaking in tongues" has become.

So... and I'm not disputing the reality of the Spirit of God living and working in the lives of people. And, I'm not disputing or even questioning the efficacy of the Spirit to produce "fruit" and to change lives.

I'm just asking, how does the 21st Century "tongue talker" actually know that they are experiencing the same experience that was described on the Day of Pentecost (and at other times in the NT) or that Paul mentions in his epistles?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I think you've missed my point. Acts 2:4, gives a description of "speaking in tongues" that has never been recorded nor demonstrated to even exist since the time of the "Pentecostal Outpouring" which began in 1901.

I know that there are many - and even a couple on AFF - who say that they have heard this phenomena, but absolutely no one has any real evidence that it has ever really taken place... and that's remarkable given how wide spread "speaking in tongues" has become.

So... and I'm not disputing the reality of the Spirit of God living and working in the lives of people. And, I'm not disputing or even questioning the efficacy of the Spirit to produce "fruit" and to change lives.

I'm just asking, how does the 21st Century "tongue talker" actually know that they are experiencing the same experience that was described on the Day of Pentecost (and at other times in the NT) or that Paul mentions in his epistles?

... AND ... as a follow up question:

Since we can't know for certain, why do so many want to make this THE STANDARD for salvation?

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I think you've missed my point. Acts 2:4, gives a description of "speaking in tongues" that has never been recorded nor demonstrated to even exist since the time of the "Pentecostal Outpouring" which began in 1901.

I know that there are many - and even a couple on AFF - who say that they have heard this phenomena, but absolutely no one has any real evidence that it has ever really taken place... and that's remarkable given how wide spread "speaking in tongues" has become.

So... and I'm not disputing the reality of the Spirit of God living and working in the lives of people. And, I'm not disputing or even questioning the efficacy of the Spirit to produce "fruit" and to change lives.

I'm just asking, how does the 21st Century "tongue talker" actually know that they are experiencing the same experience that was described on the Day of Pentecost (and at other times in the NT) or that Paul mentions in his epistles?

THEY always refer to it as pentacost, but the day of pentacost was a 2 fold miracle, they spoke in other tounges, and the crowd heard them in there own language. i believe this event is different from the gift of tounges describes in 1 corithians.

I however dont link tounges of any sort to salvation i link tounges as a gift of the spirit.. and there has been some that has done research on tounges through out the years, even some before asuza street.

Just asuza street was the place that caught everyones attention. cause miracles was also happening there not just people speaking in tounges

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by acerrak

galations 5 is fruit of the Spirit, which can be produced by anyone who God lives in whether they spoke in tounges or not.

again people do not seek God, God seeks them, and you couldnt even begin to acknowledge Jesus as your saviour unless the Spirit of the Lord was in you.

I disagree with reformed theology for the most part.

People seek God because God by his grace draws them to himself and leads them to repentance but he doesn't make them repent. God gives every man a measure of faith so that when presented with the gospel, the word of God, we can either say "yes" or "no". We can acknowledge Jesus as Lord just as they those who converted to Christ in the book of Acts did BEFORE they were filled with the Spirit of God.


As for 1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost

Paul is saying that it is only by the Spirit of God that someone can say in the prophetic that Jesus is the Lord and cannot call Jesus accursed. So if someone does say that Jesus is not Lord or that Jesus is accursed then you know that that person is not speaking by the Spirit of God. Paul is teaching this in the context of spiritual gifts and not salvation.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I disagree with reformed theology for the most part.

People seek God because God by his grace draws them to himself and leads them to repentance but he doesn't make them repent. God gives every man a measure of faith so that when presented with the gospel, the word of God, we can either say "yes" or "no". We can acknowledge Jesus as Lord just as they those who converted to Christ in the book of Acts did BEFORE they were filled with the Spirit of God.


As for 1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost

Paul is saying that it is only by the Spirit of God that someone can say in the prophetic that Jesus is the Lord and cannot call Jesus accursed. So if someone does say that Jesus is not Lord or that Jesus is accursed then you know that that person is not speaking by the Spirit of God. Paul is teaching this in the context of spiritual gifts and not salvation.

I didnt say anything about God making them repent. I said you wont seek God until he opens your eyes

john 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Im not preaching predistination, im telling you unless the Spirit of God draws you, then your not gonna seek Jesus, serious its just that simple.

Your not gonna wake up one morning and say im gonna go to church, not gonna happen. we all will spend our lives in a rioutous living camping out in the pig pin until the father draws us.

thats what i said, i didnt comment on predistination or make a point about calvinism

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by acerrak

I didnt say anything about God making them repent. I said you wont seek God until he opens your eyes

john 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Im not preaching predistination, im telling you unless the Spirit of God draws you, then your not gonna seek Jesus, serious its just that simple.

Your not gonna wake up one morning and say im gonna go to church, not gonna happen. we all will spend our lives in a rioutous living camping out in the pig pin until the father draws us.

thats what i said, i didnt comment on predistination or make a point about calvinism

Okay, I agreed with you on this point. I thought I made that clear in my response to you. It was the second point you made about not being able to say that Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit indwelling a person beforehand. Totally disagree with that and explained why I do, but you didn't respond to my comment.