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  #351  
Old 03-23-2022, 03:38 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
1 Corinthians 7:10
And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1 Corinthians 7:11
But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
Jer.3

[8] And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

It is a mistake to focus on one passage and ignore others. I said you were wrong (biblically) and you are.

So please explain this (biblical) verse to me.

I’ll wait.
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  #352  
Old 03-23-2022, 04:00 PM
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good samaritan good samaritan is offline
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Jer.3

[8] And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

It is a mistake to focus on one passage and ignore others. I said you were wrong (biblically) and you are.

So please explain this (biblical) verse to me.

I’ll wait.
That is easy. There was infidelity. Israel had committed idolatry and been unfaithful to God(infidelity is legitimate grounds for divorce and the cheater alone is in the sin). If someone cheats on their spouse of course they have valid grounds, but it isn’t ok for people just to say, “hey, let’s do something different .”

The Bible also says:

Malachi 2:16

For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away:
for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts:
therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

God did not cast Israel away for a single offense, but Israel was a habitual cheater. If God is that merciful, then how should we be with our spouses.
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  #353  
Old 03-23-2022, 04:07 PM
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good samaritan good samaritan is offline
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

'PS God was also reconciled to her ( Israel). May try reading Hosea.
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  #354  
Old 03-23-2022, 04:35 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
That is easy. There was infidelity. Israel had committed idolatry and been unfaithful to God(infidelity is legitimate grounds for divorce and the cheater alone is in the sin). If someone cheats on their spouse of course they have valid grounds, but it isn’t ok for people just to say, “hey, let’s do something different .”

The Bible also says:

Malachi 2:16

For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away:
for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts:
therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

God did not cast Israel away for a single offense, but Israel was a habitual cheater. If God is that merciful, then how should we be with our spouses.
Oh? So there are mitigating circumstances?

But you never mentioned that possibility.

Here’s another easy one for you.

Deut.24

[1] When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

Please explain this. There is no mention of unfaithfulness in this scripture. And it is biblical.
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  #355  
Old 03-23-2022, 04:39 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
'PS God was also reconciled to her ( Israel). May try reading Hosea.
God was also un-reconciled to her. Might try reading Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
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  #356  
Old 03-23-2022, 06:42 PM
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seguidordejesus seguidordejesus is offline
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

Some thoughts:

"Christ tells us, “Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate” (Mark 10:9; Matt. 19:6). Sounds rather straightforward. This is a divine request, much like “do not kill”. However, note that Christ’s teaching that marriage may not be dissolved does not mean He’s saying it cannot occur. Mankind has always been free to obey or disobey God’s commandments. Man can dissolve his marriage if he chooses to. He can kill his fellow man, if he chooses to. In either case, he commits grievous sin and must seek repentance. Put another way, this command from Christ is not a magical glue that holds the marriage together despite the unwillingness of one or both spouses."

"Regardless of their reasons (i.e. ignorance, despondency), many of those who choose not to obey this command from Christ resort to divorce, which essentially kills the marriage. In the eyes of the Church, this is obviously not a positive action or intervention. Rather, it dissolves the mini-Church formed through the marriage relationship and severs a bond that was meant to be indissoluble. Yet the Church can permit divorce and remarriage, per our Lord’s words in the Gospel of Matthew:

I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9

We see here that grievous sinful behavior can taint the completeness of the marriage relationship. In other words, it is the offence that breaks the bond, not the divorce itself. According to the spirit of Orthodoxy, juridical obligation alone cannot maintain the unity of the married couple. Formal unity must be consistent with internal symphony between husband and wife.

When the couple can no longer salvage anything of this internal symphony, the bond that was originally considered indissoluble has already dissolved. Further, the Church recognizes there are cases in which marriage life has no content or may even lead to loss of the soul. Saint John Chrysostom says in this regard: “better to break the covenant than to lose one’s soul”. Nevertheless, the divorce is a tragedy, the result of human weakness and sin."

"Oikonomia is based on Christ’s command to his apostles in John 20: 22-23. The human marriage experience becomes impossible after the spiritual death of love. It is then that the Church – as the Body of Christ – with understanding and compassion and out of personal concern, can apply oikonomia by accepting the divorce and not rejecting the sinful believers, or depriving them of God’s mercy and further grace. Oikonomia exists for this express reason: that the weak sinner not be irrevocably banned from the Church communion. This is in accordance with Christ’s example, who came to save the lost.

Before the church authorities acknowledge the divorce via oikonomia, the couple should pursue pastoral counselling and attempt to reconcile. Only when this is no longer possible should oikonomia be exercised."

https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/rema...after-divorce/
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  #357  
Old 03-23-2022, 07:35 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by seguidordejesus View Post
Some thoughts:

"Christ tells us, “Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate” (Mark 10:9; Matt. 19:6). Sounds rather straightforward. This is a divine request, much like “do not kill”. However, note that Christ’s teaching that marriage may not be dissolved does not mean He’s saying it cannot occur. Mankind has always been free to obey or disobey God’s commandments. Man can dissolve his marriage if he chooses to. He can kill his fellow man, if he chooses to. In either case, he commits grievous sin and must seek repentance. Put another way, this command from Christ is not a magical glue that holds the marriage together despite the unwillingness of one or both spouses."

"Regardless of their reasons (i.e. ignorance, despondency), many of those who choose not to obey this command from Christ resort to divorce, which essentially kills the marriage. In the eyes of the Church, this is obviously not a positive action or intervention. Rather, it dissolves the mini-Church formed through the marriage relationship and severs a bond that was meant to be indissoluble. Yet the Church can permit divorce and remarriage, per our Lord’s words in the Gospel of Matthew:

I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9

We see here that grievous sinful behavior can taint the completeness of the marriage relationship. In other words, it is the offence that breaks the bond, not the divorce itself. According to the spirit of Orthodoxy, juridical obligation alone cannot maintain the unity of the married couple. Formal unity must be consistent with internal symphony between husband and wife.

When the couple can no longer salvage anything of this internal symphony, the bond that was originally considered indissoluble has already dissolved. Further, the Church recognizes there are cases in which marriage life has no content or may even lead to loss of the soul. Saint John Chrysostom says in this regard: “better to break the covenant than to lose one’s soul”. Nevertheless, the divorce is a tragedy, the result of human weakness and sin."

"Oikonomia is based on Christ’s command to his apostles in John 20: 22-23. The human marriage experience becomes impossible after the spiritual death of love. It is then that the Church – as the Body of Christ – with understanding and compassion and out of personal concern, can apply oikonomia by accepting the divorce and not rejecting the sinful believers, or depriving them of God’s mercy and further grace. Oikonomia exists for this express reason: that the weak sinner not be irrevocably banned from the Church communion. This is in accordance with Christ’s example, who came to save the lost.

Before the church authorities acknowledge the divorce via oikonomia, the couple should pursue pastoral counselling and attempt to reconcile. Only when this is no longer possible should oikonomia be exercised."

https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/rema...after-divorce/
Interesting.
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  #358  
Old 03-23-2022, 09:32 PM
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good samaritan good samaritan is offline
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

Quote:
tithemaster: Oh? So there are mitigating circumstances?

But you never mentioned that possibility.
Actually, I did. Reread post #350. My initial comment on this thread was in regards to Christian married couples separation and divorces not being spiritual matters. Infidelity was not mentioned in the original post so I didn’t think it was relevant to mention it. But, yes if there has been infidelity than divorce is biblically permissible.

Quote:
Here’s another easy one for you.

Deut.24

[1] When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

Please explain this. There is no mention of unfaithfulness in this scripture. And it is biblical.
I personally believe that the uncleanness mentioned is related to some form of sexual immorality.

Although, Jesus addresses it himself:

Matthew 19:3-9
The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, -- Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
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  #359  
Old 03-23-2022, 09:43 PM
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good samaritan good samaritan is offline
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
God was also un-reconciled to her. Might try reading Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
This one is complicated because it is yet to be determined. Many prophetic teachers teach about another reconciliation before the Lords return.

Romans 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

The apostles expected a restoration of natural Israel it appears here.

Acts 1:6
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
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  #360  
Old 03-23-2022, 10:10 PM
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good samaritan good samaritan is offline
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Re: Divorce and remarriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by seguidordejesus View Post
Some thoughts:

"Christ tells us, “Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate” (Mark 10:9; Matt. 19:6). Sounds rather straightforward. This is a divine request, much like “do not kill”. However, note that Christ’s teaching that marriage may not be dissolved does not mean He’s saying it cannot occur. Mankind has always been free to obey or disobey God’s commandments. Man can dissolve his marriage if he chooses to. He can kill his fellow man, if he chooses to. In either case, he commits grievous sin and must seek repentance. Put another way, this command from Christ is not a magical glue that holds the marriage together despite the unwillingness of one or both spouses."

"Regardless of their reasons (i.e. ignorance, despondency), many of those who choose not to obey this command from Christ resort to divorce, which essentially kills the marriage. In the eyes of the Church, this is obviously not a positive action or intervention. Rather, it dissolves the mini-Church formed through the marriage relationship and severs a bond that was meant to be indissoluble. Yet the Church can permit divorce and remarriage, per our Lord’s words in the Gospel of Matthew:

I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9

We see here that grievous sinful behavior can taint the completeness of the marriage relationship. In other words, it is the offence that breaks the bond, not the divorce itself. According to the spirit of Orthodoxy, juridical obligation alone cannot maintain the unity of the married couple. Formal unity must be consistent with internal symphony between husband and wife.

When the couple can no longer salvage anything of this internal symphony, the bond that was originally considered indissoluble has already dissolved. Further, the Church recognizes there are cases in which marriage life has no content or may even lead to loss of the soul. Saint John Chrysostom says in this regard: “better to break the covenant than to lose one’s soul”. Nevertheless, the divorce is a tragedy, the result of human weakness and sin."

"Oikonomia is based on Christ’s command to his apostles in John 20: 22-23. The human marriage experience becomes impossible after the spiritual death of love. It is then that the Church – as the Body of Christ – with understanding and compassion and out of personal concern, can apply oikonomia by accepting the divorce and not rejecting the sinful believers, or depriving them of God’s mercy and further grace. Oikonomia exists for this express reason: that the weak sinner not be irrevocably banned from the Church communion. This is in accordance with Christ’s example, who came to save the lost.

Before the church authorities acknowledge the divorce via oikonomia, the couple should pursue pastoral counselling and attempt to reconcile. Only when this is no longer possible should oikonomia be exercised."

https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/rema...after-divorce/
We should always seek to see people restored. Unfortunately our culture has become way too lenient on divorce and that has bled into churches.
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