Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Sanctuary > Deep Waters
Facebook

Notices

Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #71  
Old 07-14-2022, 05:10 AM
good samaritan's Avatar
good samaritan good samaritan is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 2,710
Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Brother,

I have heard many time that this statement has been made. I’m not saying that you’re not special, but these words are not unique. It usually goes like this.

Pastor: “I didn’t even take all of the tithes (implying that they would be justified in doing so).
My post doesn’t resemble this. I said

“I personally believe all tithes and offerings that are undesignated should go into the general church treasury and the pastor should receive a reasonable salary based upon the churches income and expenses.”

Where does that say anything about entitlement to the tithes? Again, as I have already stated that tithing is just a method a person may choose to give. It isn’t a holy allotment only to be spent only by the presbytery lol. Tithes are essentially just offerings anyway, so it goes to the church. The church can then decide what is fair to the pastor of that assembly.

Quote:
So I’d like to know, of the nine occurrences of a form of the word pastor in the Bible, could you quote me a single scripture that says being a pastor entitled anyone to a tithe portion, ever?

I’m not aware of any.
I think the point has already been understood that the “command” to tithe is not upon the church. So obviously there is no scripture that says pastors are to receive the tithes. I really don’t see where you get that from my post. It maybe your experience, but is not what I was saying.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 07-14-2022, 08:48 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,014
Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post

In order for Paul to preach the gospel freely, someone else had to give.
In reality the gospel isn’t ever free, but it is actually founded upon someone’s sacrifice. We too must move ahead after receiving the gospel.
By imposing a minimum you don't let saints mature into giving more over time. The false doctrine kills the real design for giving from the heart for the church.


Quote:
Tithing is a singular method of giving. No one has suggested it heaven or hell. One of the problems with tithing is not that it sets the bar too high, but instead it sets it too low. Jesus taught on his sermon on the mount ( Mathew 5) concerning many laws. Each of those laws he extended them further rather then lessening them.

Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Definition of exceed
transitive verb
1 : to be greater than or superior to
2 : to go beyond a limit set by
exceeded his authority
3 : to extend outside of
the river will exceed its banks
Tithing IS too much for many people. I have known many that should not be giving that much money, and as result they pull from Credit Cards and other debts to keep up with their own family and extended family needs, yet they tithe. Or worse, they ignore the need of their parents because instead of honoring their parents they tithe honoring the minister.

Quote:
The NT church does not live below the law, but we far surpass it.
The book of Acts at the beginning shows people selling their possession (properties), NOT giving their income from their trades or commerce. I'm pretty sure they gave some of that too, but that's not what Acts highlights. It was people that were landlord selling their properties or sharing it with the church probably to hosts those 3000 that stayed in Jerusalem longer after Pentecost to learn more from the Apostles. Probably was mainly motivating as an outpouring of hospitality.


CONTEXT: 3000 people from out of town that came to the Pentecost feast converted. Likely wanted to stay longer to learn from the Apostles doctrine, and needed hospitality. What you read next, may be the response to a need for hospitality. That's probably why we don't see that outpooring of selling properties later on in the book of Acts or in the Epistles.
Act 2:44-45 KJV - (44) And all that believed were together, and had all things common; (45) And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need.

Act 4:32 NKJV - (32) Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common.

Act 4:34 NKJV - (34) Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold,

This practice was not an on going thing for all churches everywhere, but an extraordinary response of selling and sharing properties to meet an extraordinary need.

So the whole idea of the church continually giving sacrificially forever and 100% of their income is not biblical. It is not even sustainable. 10% is a lot of money for many people. Many of them sacrifice emerency savings to be able to respond to hospital bills, car bills, or even basic needs, or retirement savings ending with the a prospect of being a burden for their kids, in order to give hundreds of dollars a month in concept of tithing. And you say that their sacrifice is not enough and they are lucky that they are not in the NT church that gave 100%?


This is what you see later on:

Act 11:28-29 NKJV - (28) Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. (29) Then the disciples, each according to his ability, determined to send relief to the brethren dwelling in Judea.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 07-14-2022, 10:05 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is online now
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,774
Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
My post doesn’t resemble this. I said

“I personally believe all tithes and offerings that are undesignated should go into the general church treasury and the pastor should receive a reasonable salary based upon the churches income and expenses.”

Where does that say anything about entitlement to the tithes? Again, as I have already stated that tithing is just a method a person may choose to give. It isn’t a holy allotment only to be spent only by the presbytery lol. Tithes are essentially just offerings anyway, so it goes to the church. The church can then decide what is fair to the pastor of that assembly.



I think the point has already been understood that the “command” to tithe is not upon the church. So obviously there is no scripture that says pastors are to receive the tithes. I really don’t see where you get that from my post. It maybe your experience, but is not what I was saying.
Brother,

Please read your own comments. Then try to understand my questions and comments. I understand that you receive tithe money from your church. If that is not correct please say so. You also say that tithing should be taught, because it is a biblical principle. I agree.

What I don’t agree with is that we should teach a totally different concept about tithing than God ordained. I’m pretty sure this is what you are doing. You seem to agree that there is no scripture that entitles a pastor to a portion of the tithe, yet you have accepted tithing anyway. What does that teach? If I recall correctly Brother Blume does the same thing. In our discussion on tithes he agreed that tithing was not a NT principle, but he said the church offered, so he accepted. In my opinion, that constitutes hypocrisy. He evidently he believes it is a business deal.

Notwithstanding the fact that we both seem to believe that pastors are not ordained to receive tithes (and we agree that tithing is not a principle that applies to Christians) there is a list of people who ARE entitled to tithes (if it were even a Christian thing).

So here is where I ask you if your church also shares the tithe with the singers, widows, orphans and aliens. Because, if tithing were a thing, and teaching it is okay, this list of people would be the ones who ARE entitled to tithing and have scripture to support that entitlement.

So do singers in your church receive tithes?

Do widows receive tithes?

Or is the pastor (who is not scripturally eligible to receive tithes) the one who actually receives tithes, even though he is not scripturally eligible?

Please answer these questions.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 07-14-2022, 10:21 AM
good samaritan's Avatar
good samaritan good samaritan is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 2,710
Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
By imposing a minimum you don't let saints mature into giving more over time. The false doctrine kills the real design for giving from the heart for the church.
No one is imposing, mandating, demanding anything. You are correct if you are mandating a 10% at your church for membership it is unbiblical.

Quote:
Tithing IS too much for many people. I have known many that should not be giving that much money, and as result they pull from Credit Cards and other debts to keep up with their own family and extended family needs, yet they tithe. Or worse, they ignore the need of their parents because instead of honoring their parents they tithe honoring the minister.
If a person cannot afford to give 10%, than they should not. Although, for most that is not the case. Whatever people choose to give is between them and God, but I still will continue to teach giving using tithing as illustration, but not a command. I also think we should be teaching young people in the church good principles and applications of stewardship in their personal lives. There is a lot of problems that people have with money and it often is a lack of stewardship. Of course that is not always the case.



Quote:
The book of Acts at the beginning shows people selling their possession (properties), NOT giving their income from their trades or commerce. I'm pretty sure they gave some of that too, but that's not what Acts highlights. It was people that were landlord selling their properties or sharing it with the church probably to hosts those 3000 that stayed in Jerusalem longer after Pentecost to learn more from the Apostles. Probably was mainly motivating as an outpouring of hospitality.
The fact that they sold their possession is even more extreme. Your income fluctuates but your assets are what you have been using your income for the entirety of your life. Many people sold lands that was inherited so that means they sold the sum of their past income and possibly their parents income.
The Scripture doesn’t tell us why, but coincidentally Jesus did ask some to do this during his 3/2 years.
Quote:
CONTEXT: 3000 people from out of town that came to the Pentecost feast converted. Likely wanted to stay longer to learn from the Apostles doctrine, and needed hospitality. What you read next, may be the response to a need for hospitality. That's probably why we don't see that outpooring of selling properties later on in the book of Acts or in the Epistles.
Act 2:44-45 KJV - (44) And all that believed were together, and had all things This practice was not an on going thing for all churches everywhere, but an extraordinary response of selling and sharing properties to meet an extraordinary need.

So the whole idea of the church continually giving sacrificially forever and 100% of their income is not biblical. It is not even sustainable. 10% is a lot of money for many p common; (45) And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need.

Act 4:32 NKJV - (32) Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common.

Act 4:34 NKJV - (34) Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold,
We really don’t know why. I have heard it taught that the Holy Ghost led them to sell everything in preparation for what was going to happen to Jerusalem in AD 70. I will say it was just Spirit Led giving.


Quote:
This practice was not an on going thing for all churches everywhere, but an extraordinary response of selling and sharing properties to meet an extraordinary need.

So the whole idea of the church continually giving sacrificially forever and 100% of their income is not biblical. It is not even sustainable. 10% is a lot of money for many people. Many of them sacrifice emerency savings to be able to respond to hospital bills, car bills, or even basic needs, or retirement savings ending with the a prospect of being a burden for their kids, in order to give hundreds of dollars a month in concept of tithing. And you say that their sacrifice is not enough and they are lucky that they are not in the NT church that gave 100%?
When did I ever say anyone’s giving isn’t enough? BTW, in order for someone to give 100’s a month tithes it would also mean that their income must be 1000’s a month. This is another way tithe teaching has gone wrong. People have taught, you are under a curse if you don’t, but blessed if you do. If you are not a good steward with the 100% you are gonna always struggle. Then the said tither gets mad at God because he let their financial ship sink. I don’t teach giving to receive a blessing in return, but I teach as an outflow of character that is in us by the Holy Ghost. I believe tithing is a good but not only act of responsible stewardship.



Quote:
Thisis what you see later on:

Act 11:28-29 NKJV - (28) Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. (29) Then the disciples, each according to his ability, determined to send relief to the brethren dwelling in Judea.
Absolutely the way it should be

Last edited by good samaritan; 07-14-2022 at 10:27 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 07-14-2022, 10:25 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is online now
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,774
Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Good Samaritan,

You really should study what Paul really taught. Actions speak louder than words. But he taught that leadership should support the church, and not necessarily the other way around. An example that you have cited, (him robbing other churches so that he could preach the gospel to this particular church for free) is not really describing a pastor/church relationship as we know it. It is more of an evangelist relationship or a missionary relationship. Wouldn’t you agree?

For a much better example of an elder relationship towards the church, we should study the following passage . . .

[17] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
[18] And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
[19] Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
[20] And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
[21] Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
[22] And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
[23] Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
[24] But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
[25] And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
[26] Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
[27] For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
[28] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
[31] Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
[32] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
[33] I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
[34] Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
[35] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
[36] And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.
[37] And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him,

Please study this passage. He taught them by example, to support the weak in the church. He supported himself AND those with him with his very hands. (Manual labor by definition). I realize this is not popular with pastors, who have come up with their own versions of justifying what they prefer to believe. But I implore you to study and understand what the scripture actually says about the subject.

Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Sometimes it’s the best way to learn.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 07-14-2022, 10:59 AM
good samaritan's Avatar
good samaritan good samaritan is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 2,710
Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Brother,
What I don’t agree with is that we should teach a totally different concept about tithing than God ordained. I’m pretty sure this is what you are doing. You seem to agree that there is no scripture that entitles a pastor to a portion of the tithe, yet you have accepted tithing anyway. What does that teach? If I recall correctly Brother Blume does the same thing. In our discussion on tithes he agreed that tithing was not a NT principle, but he said the church offered, so he accepted. In my opinion, that constitutes hypocrisy. He evidently he believes it is a business deal.
I am getting a little confused in what you think I believe. I believe a pastor should receive a salary based upon church resources. Those resources can come from however people give whether it is a tenth of their income or not. The principle of not muzzling the ox is applied here.

Quote:
So here is where I ask you if your church also shares the tithe with the singers, widows, orphans and aliens. Because, if tithing were a thing, and teaching it is okay, this list of people would be the ones who ARE entitled to tithing and have scripture to support that entitlement.
We use church resources for all of that yes (which would include tithe). I don’t see what you mean by entitlement. This is not mosaic law tithing to the Levites. I think people can acknowledge who is ministering to them without anyone having entitlement.

Quote:
So do singers in your church receive tithes?

Do widows receive tithes?

Or is the pastor (who is not scripturally eligible to receive tithes) the one who actually receives tithes, even though he is not scripturally eligible?

Please answer these questions.
Again, this isn’t mosaic law of tithing. Whether people give 4,10,15,20, 100% it is up to that church to decide where those resources will be best invested. I do believe that churches need to invest in other leaders in the church, but it is up to that church to decide how and when. The money that is in the church belongs to the church and its ministries.

Last edited by good samaritan; 07-14-2022 at 11:02 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 07-14-2022, 11:11 AM
good samaritan's Avatar
good samaritan good samaritan is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 2,710
Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Good Samaritan,

You really should study what Paul really taught. Actions speak louder than words. But he taught that leadership should support the church, and not necessarily the other way around. An example that you have cited, (him robbing other churches so that he could preach the gospel to this particular church for free) is not really describing a pastor/church relationship as we know it. It is more of an evangelist relationship or a missionary relationship. Wouldn’t you agree?

For a much better example of an elder relationship towards the church, we should study the following passage . . .

[17] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
[18] And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
[19] Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
[20] And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
[21] Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
[22] And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
[23] Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
[24] But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
[25] And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
[26] Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
[27] For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
[28] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
[31] Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
[32] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
[33] I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
[34] Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
[35] I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
[36] And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.
[37] And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him,

Please study this passage. He taught them by example, to support the weak in the church. He supported himself AND those with him with his very hands. (Manual labor by definition). I realize this is not popular with pastors, who have come up with their own versions of justifying what they prefer to believe. But I implore you to study and understand what the scripture actually says about the subject.

Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Sometimes it’s the best way to learn.
The strong should care for the weak I agree.
All men should be responsible for working for their family and others in need I agree.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 07-14-2022, 11:13 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is online now
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,774
Re: History of Tithes in the Church

noun
en·​ti·​tle·​ment | \ in-ˈtī-tᵊl-mənt , en- \
Definition
1a : the state or condition of being entitled : RIGHT
b : a right to benefits specified especially by law or contract
2 : belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges
3 : a government program providing benefits to members of a specified group
also : funds supporting or distributed by such a program

What I mean by entitlement. Specifically number two.

So are pastors entitled to tithes? If you believe that they are, could you post scripture supporting your belief?

You seem to be focused on whether or not members should tithe. I’m focused on whether or not pastors are entitled to (receive) tithes.

Last edited by Tithesmeister; 07-14-2022 at 11:24 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 07-14-2022, 11:16 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is online now
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,774
Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
The strong should care for the weak I agree.
All men should be responsible for working for their family and others in need I agree.
Thank you.

Do you agree that Paul taught these men that they should support themselves?

And the church?

With their own hands?

Edit:Which is about as opposite of taking tithes from the church as it could possibly be (just to be clear).

Last edited by Tithesmeister; 07-14-2022 at 11:26 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 07-14-2022, 11:55 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is online now
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,774
Re: History of Tithes in the Church

QUOTE=good samaritan;1610338]I am getting a little confused in what you think I believe. I believe a pastor should receive a salary based upon church resources. Those resources can come from however people give whether it is a tenth of their income or not. The principle of not muzzling the ox is applied [/QUOTE]

Edit:Could you share with me why you believe the pastor should receive a salary? Do you have any scripture for this belief?

The principle of muzzling the ox has nothing to do with the tithe doctrine. Do you understand that? This thread is about tithing.

To be clear, the ox wasn’t entitled to tithes. In that respect he and Paul were equal. Paul was a Benjamite. Which of course meant he wasn’t a Levite, and as such wasn’t entitled to receive tithes.

QUOTE=good samaritan;1610338]
We use church resources for all of that yes (which would include tithe). I don’t see what you mean by entitlement. This is not mosaic law tithing to the Levites. I think people can acknowledge who is ministering to them without anyone having entitlement. [/QUOTE]

Could you share with me approximately how much tithe is shared with (I don’t know) singers, as opposed to the pastor in your church?


QUOTE=good samaritan;1610338]
Again, this isn’t mosaic law of tithing. Whether people give 4,10,15,20, 100% it is up to that church to decide where those resources will be best invested. I do believe that churches need to invest in other leaders in the church, but it is up to that church to decide how and when. The money that is in the church belongs to the church and its ministries.[/QUOTE]

Brother,

I admit that I may well be confused about what you believe. I am beginning to believe you are confused by what you believe as well. Or perhaps you don’t want to admit that what you believe and what you teach are separate things.

You have said (I think) that tithing should be taught as a biblical principle. Now you say that it is not according to the Mosaic law and the Levites.

What is it then?

Deducting the Mosaic law from biblical tithing certainly limits the teaching of tithing as far as scriptural examples are concerned. I’m certain you are NOT teaching biblical tithing. I’m pretty sure of that.

So did you just make up your own tithing doctrine?

Please help me understand.

Last edited by Tithesmeister; 07-14-2022 at 12:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
History of tithes in North America James Griffin Fellowship Hall 25 11-01-2010 11:07 AM
Where do you go to church,If you dont pay tithes? corvet786c Fellowship Hall 12 09-11-2009 06:16 AM
Would You Attend a Church Whose Pastor Did Not Pay Tithes? tamor Fellowship Hall 54 09-21-2007 02:52 PM
Would you attend a church that did not require tithes? COOPER Fellowship Hall 178 08-14-2007 01:23 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Salome

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.