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  #81  
Old 07-15-2022, 09:16 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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AFF - sabbath discussion threads

Apostolic Friends Forum - sabbath threads
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index...-threads.2555/
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  #82  
Old 08-11-2022, 09:32 PM
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Re: Should we still observe the sabbath?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
No mention of the Sabbath being abolished or changed. Besides, the stammering lips and another tongue aren't the rest, it is the foreign invaders coming in as punishment for Israel's commandment breaking. He told the people about His rest, but they rejected His rest by breaking His covenant through willful disobedience. So He will speak to them through the foreigners because of their unbelief. Just like Paul explained in 1 Corinthians 14:21-22
.

I missed it before, but how does Paul explain in 1Corinthians 14 anything about foreign invaders?
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Old 08-11-2022, 10:53 PM
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Re: Should we still observe the sabbath?

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Brother, why double-down? If the word "sabbath" isn't in a verse, then it isn't there. End of story. Just because translators have used the word "rest" to translate into English several different Hebrew terms, it does not make them equivalent to one another in meaning.

And it's not a question of maybe. You can look at the Hebrew text yourself and see that "sabbath" isn't there.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/isaiah/28-12.htm

As far as Esaias' treatment of the text, he is correct. Paul's use of Isaiah 28:11-12 in relationship to the gift of tongues is in regard to it being a sign for the unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22), just as the invading nations who spoke other languages would be a sign to the unbelieving, drunken Israelite priests and prophets that God had sent these invading nations as a judgment, and as proof that God was speaking to them through Isaiah.
The sole purpose of the Sabbath is for rest, correct?

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested ‎(נוּחַ) the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Lemma:
‎נוּח ⟺ נוּחַ

Transliteration: nach
Pronunciation: noo'-akh
Part of Speech: Verb
Root Word (Etymology):
A primitive root
BDB Lexicon:
1. to rest

Isaiah 28:12
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Here in Isaiah is that word rest(nach) again. You may not believe that there is any correlation, but it jumps out at me.
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  #84  
Old 08-12-2022, 11:20 AM
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Re: Should we still observe the sabbath?

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
The sole purpose of the Sabbath is for rest, correct?

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested ‎(נוּחַ) the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Lemma:
‎נוּח ⟺ נוּחַ

Transliteration: nach
Pronunciation: noo'-akh
Part of Speech: Verb
Root Word (Etymology):
A primitive root
BDB Lexicon:
1. to rest

Isaiah 28:12
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Here in Isaiah is that word rest(nach) again. You may not believe that there is any correlation, but it jumps out at me.
The purpose of the Sabbath relates to rest, yes, but the purpose for KEEPING it is to honour the true Creator God. Sabbath keeping is a mark of identification, that you worship Jehovah God the Creator.

Let's look at the passage in Isaiah:

Isaiah 28:7-13 KJV
But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. [8] For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. [9] Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. [10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: [11] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. [12] To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. [13] But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

They are rebellious and disobedient. He had given them "the word of the LORD" but they despised it. That word or message was one of rest.

For example:

Jeremiah 6:15-16 KJV
Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the Lord. [16] Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

The rest was comnected to the word of the LORD which had become nothing but "line upon line, precept upon precept" to the rebellious ones. As it is even today. God's precepts are considered tedious and burdensome to many. As a result, they do not find TRUE rest.

Rest and refreshing isn't about one's personal emotional state. It isn't about feelings. It is SPIRITUAL and has to do with being conformed to the will of God. The rest and refreshing God offers is NOT some emotional happy-place of feelgoodism. It is a SPIRITUAL and MORAL place of RIGHTEOUSNESS, being right with God, which manifests in obedience. Because a person who is right with God does not find His Word to be a bunch of endless burdensome precepts ("line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept").

Barnes Notes:
To whom he said - To whom God had said; that is, to the Jews. He had taught them the way of rest through the prophets, but they had refused to learn.
This is the rest - That is, this is the true way of happiness, to wit, by keeping the commands of God which had been so often repeated as to become to them objects of satiety and disgust.

This is the refreshing - This is the way in which the mind may be comforted.
Poole's:
To whom he said, to which people the Lord, by his minister, said,

This, this doctrine or precept, as it is expressed, Isaiah 28:9,10, or the word of the Lord, as it follows, Isaiah 28:13, is the rest; the only way, in the observation of which you will find rest and satisfaction.

Cause the weary to rest, Heb. cause the weary (understand either soul or country) rest. As rest is offered to you by the prophets in God’s name, do you embrace it; which is to be done by hearkening to God’s word, as appears by the following clauses. So shall this people, which hath been so oft and so long wearied and harassed by great and manifold calamities, find rest and peace.

Yet they would not hear; they are wilfully ignorant, and obstinately refused the very means of instruction.
Keil and Delitzsch:
Jehovah would speak to the scoffing people of stammering tongue a language of the same kind, since He would speak to them by a people that stammered in their estimation, i.e., who talked as barbarians (cf., βαρβαρίζειν and balbutire; see Isaiah 33:19, compared with Deuteronomy 28:49). The Assyrian Semitic had the same sound in the ear of an Israelite, as Low Saxon (a provincial dialect) in the ear of an educated German; in addition to which, it was plentifully mixed up with Iranian, and possibly also with Tatar elements. This people would practically interpret the will of Jehovah in its own patios to the despisers of the prophet. Jehovah had directed them, through His prophets, after the judgments which they had experienced with sufficient severity (Isaiah 1:5.), into the true way to rest and refreshing (Jeremiah 6:16), and had exhorted them to give rest to the nation, which had suffered so much under Ahaz through the calamities of war (2 Chronicles 28), and not to drag it into another way by goading it on to rise against Assyria, or impose a new burden in addition to the tribute to Assyria by purchasing the help of Egypt. But they would not hearken (אבוּא equals אבוּ, Isaiah 30:15-16; Ges. 23, 3, Anm. 3). Their policy was a very different one from being still, or believing and waiting. And therefore the word of Jehovah, which they regarded as en endless series of trivial commands, would be turned in their case into an endless series of painful sufferings. To those who thought themselves so free, and lived so free, it would become a stone on which they would go to pieces, a net in which they would be snared, a trap in which they would be caught (compare Isaiah 8:14-15)
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Last edited by Esaias; 08-12-2022 at 11:23 AM.
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  #85  
Old 08-12-2022, 11:33 AM
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Re: Should we still observe the sabbath?

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
The sole purpose of the Sabbath is for rest, correct?

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested ‎(נוּחַ) the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Lemma:
‎נוּח ⟺ נוּחַ

Transliteration: nach
Pronunciation: noo'-akh
Part of Speech: Verb
Root Word (Etymology):
A primitive root
BDB Lexicon:
1. to rest

Isaiah 28:12
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Here in Isaiah is that word rest(nach) again. You may not believe that there is any correlation, but it jumps out at me.
Now, if your logic is followed on out, so that "rest" is translated into "having Jesus in your heart", in such a way as to absolve a person of moral obligation to obey the 4th Commandment, then it follows that a Christian may require his employees/servants to work 7 days a week with no rest! The Commandment doesn't just require a person to abstain from ordinary labour on the 7th day, but also prohibits having others work for you on the 7th day.

But if becoming a Christian frees you from the moral requirement to keep the Sabbath, then it is PERFECTLY RIGHT AND MORAL for a Christian to exact labour from a servant on the 7th day as well.

But in your heart you KNOW that isn't right. It would be WRONG to demand your employees work 7 days a week with no day off. You INSTINCTIVELY RECOGNIZE the moral righteousness of the Commandment. It wouldn't be LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOUR to be such a harsh taskmaster

So can you choose on your own, out of your own understanding, how to show love to your neighbour? "I'll give you every 10th day off." Or maybe every Monday off? DO WE KNOW BETTER THAN GOD how best to love both God and our neighbour? Are we smarter than God?

Proverbs 3:1-8 KJV
My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: [2] For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. [3] Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: [4] So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man. [5] Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. [6] In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. [7] Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil. [8] It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
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  #86  
Old 08-12-2022, 11:41 PM
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Re: Should we still observe the sabbath?

Quote:
The purpose of the Sabbath relates to rest, yes, but the purpose for KEEPING it is to honour the true Creator God. Sabbath keeping is a mark of identification, that you worship Jehovah God the Creator.
The Sabbath was not instituted to honour God, but was created for the benefit of Israel. Observance to the Sabbath taught them that everyone should have rest, man, beast, and lands. Sabbath keeping is a mark of identification if we have entered His rest. We become new creatures.

Quote:
They are rebellious and disobedient. He had given them "the word of the LORD" but they despised it. That word or message was one of rest.
Hebrews 4:2-3
2......For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3......For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

That Word of God(gospel) is still one of rest if we believe, we then enter into it, similarly to what was offered to Israel.


Quote:
The rest was comnected to the word of the LORD which had become nothing but "line upon line, precept upon precept" to the rebellious ones. As it is even today. God's precepts are considered tedious and burdensome to many. As a result, they do not find TRUE rest.

Rest and refreshing isn't about one's personal emotional state. It isn't about feelings. It is SPIRITUAL and has to do with being conformed to the will of God. The rest and refreshing God offers is NOT some emotional happy-place of feelgoodism. It is a SPIRITUAL and MORAL place of RIGHTEOUSNESS, being right with God, which manifests in obedience. Because a person who is right with God does not find His Word to be a bunch of endless burdensome precepts ("line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept").
We can only become right by God through the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. Jesus makes us right, and that process requires the Holy Ghost working in us. It is no longer us, but Gods Spirit working inside of us. If honoring a day brings someone that peace of mind, then they should, but I personally don’t see where it Carries over into the NT church. The law written in our hearts should cause a natural response, and not a burdensome life does and don’ts.


Quote:
Barnes Notes:
To whom he said - To whom God had said; that is, to the Jews. He had taught them the way of rest through the prophets, but they had refused to learn.
This is the rest - That is, this is the true way of happiness, to wit, by keeping the commands of God which had been so often repeated as to become to them objects of satiety and disgust.

This is the refreshing - This is the way in which the mind may be comforted.
Poole's:
To whom he said, to which people the Lord, by his minister, said,

This, this doctrine or precept, as it is expressed, Isaiah 28:9,10, or the word of the Lord, as it follows, Isaiah 28:13, is the rest; the only way, in the observation of which you will find rest and satisfaction.

Cause the weary to rest, Heb. cause the weary (understand either soul or country) rest. As rest is offered to you by the prophets in God’s name, do you embrace it; which is to be done by hearkening to God’s word, as appears by the following clauses. So shall this people, which hath been so oft and so long wearied and harassed by great and manifold calamities, find rest and peace.

Yet they would not hear; they are wilfully ignorant, and obstinately refused the very means of instruction.
Yet the law brought no one any rest. The law was illustrated in the epistles as bondage.

Galatians 4:24
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

This rest we are speaking of is synonymous with the keeping of the Sabbath although it may not explicitly say it that way. I personally believe it is rightly dividing the word.

Quote:
Keil and Delitzsch:
Jehovah would speak to the scoffing people of stammering tongue a language of the same kind, since He would speak to them by a people that stammered in their estimation, i.e., who talked as barbarians (cf., βαρβαρίζειν and balbutire; see Isaiah 33:19, compared with Deuteronomy 28:49). The Assyrian Semitic had the same sound in the ear of an Israelite, as Low Saxon (a provincial dialect) in the ear of an educated German; in addition to which, it was plentifully mixed up with Iranian, and possibly also with Tatar elements. This people would practically interpret the will of Jehovah in its own patios to the despisers of the prophet. Jehovah had directed them, through His prophets, after the judgments which they had experienced with sufficient severity (Isaiah 1:5.), into the true way to rest and refreshing (Jeremiah 6:16), and had exhorted them to give rest to the nation, which had suffered so much under Ahaz through the calamities of war (2 Chronicles 28), and not to drag it into another way by goading it on to rise against Assyria, or impose a new burden in addition to the tribute to Assyria by purchasing the help of Egypt. But they would not hearken (אבוּא equals אבוּ, Isaiah 30:15-16; Ges. 23, 3, Anm. 3). Their policy was a very different one from being still, or believing and waiting. And therefore the word of Jehovah, which they regarded as en endless series of trivial commands, would be turned in their case into an endless series of painful sufferings. To those who thought themselves so free, and lived so free, it would become a stone on which they would go to pieces, a net in which they would be snared, a trap in which they would be caught (compare Isaiah 8:14-15)
1 Corinthians 14:21-22
21......In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

as to their true and proper end
22......Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Isaiah 28 was definitely a prophecy that was written expressly for the readers in Isaiah’s day. Yet, It also had fulfillment in regards to tongues in the NT, as Paul was comparing it in 1 Corinthians 14.

I am supposed to do a Bible study next Saturday with a person who is similar to a seventh day Adventist and religiously vegan. He is Trinitarian and doesn’t believe in the Holy Ghost baptism as in the NT for today. I am not trying to pick a fight with this gentleman, but he has been trying to proselytize people from our church. I am the type of person who is open to discussion and am respectful to others point of view, but I often feel like that is misunderstood. I think he plans on converting me, or something???
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  #87  
Old 08-12-2022, 11:59 PM
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Re: Should we still observe the sabbath?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Now, if your logic is followed on out, so that "rest" is translated into "having Jesus in your heart", in such a way as to absolve a person of moral obligation to obey the 4th Commandment, then it follows that a Christian may require his employees/servants to work 7 days a week with no rest! The Commandment doesn't just require a person to abstain from ordinary labour on the 7th day, but also prohibits having others work for you on the 7th day.

But if becoming a Christian frees you from the moral requirement to keep the Sabbath, then it is PERFECTLY RIGHT AND MORAL for a Christian to exact labour from a servant on the 7th day as well.

But in your heart you KNOW that isn't right. It would be WRONG to demand your employees work 7 days a week with no day off. You INSTINCTIVELY RECOGNIZE the moral righteousness of the Commandment. It wouldn't be LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOUR to be such a harsh taskmaster

So can you choose on your own, out of your own understanding, how to show love to your neighbour? "I'll give you every 10th day off." Or maybe every Monday off? DO WE KNOW BETTER THAN GOD how best to love both God and our neighbour? Are we smarter than God?

Proverbs 3:1-8 KJV
My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: [2] For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. [3] Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: [4] So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man. [5] Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. [6] In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. [7] Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil. [8] It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
I personally no longer need the fourth commandment to be morally right in giving a person a day off weekly. I would go further than that, by not being over demanding in my expectations of them daily. That is why Israel was given the law to begin with. The law was needed for people who are lawless, but for us who have the Spirit of God living inside of us, we no longer have the necessity of the letter. We should operate in righteousness instinctively if we are walking in the Spirit that God had baptized us with
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Old 08-13-2022, 02:18 AM
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Re: Should we still observe the sabbath?

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
I personally no longer need the fourth commandment to be morally right in giving a person a day off weekly. I would go further than that, by not being over demanding in my expectations of them daily. That is why Israel was given the law to begin with. The law was needed for people who are lawless, but for us who have the Spirit of God living inside of us, we no longer have the necessity of the letter. We should operate in righteousness instinctively if we are walking in the Spirit that God had baptized us with
See? I really get the feeling you aren't reading what you are responding to. I know you feel you "don't personally need" the 4th Commandment to tell you give a worker a day off. I addressed that personal feeling. In effect, y essentially feel you know better than God does in how to go about doing the right thing. The 4th Commandment is just another precept in a long list of precepts that would weigh you down and from which you have been freed. Amirite?

I really think you have missed the entire point of Isaiah's teaching and have inadvertently championed the very position he was rebuking.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Seems like the apostle didn't want anyone to rely on their inner bubbly feels to be able to verify if their actions are in fact right. He instead pointed to "all Scripture" - which at the time included the ones YOU say you "don't personally need."
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Last edited by Esaias; 08-13-2022 at 02:21 AM.
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Old 08-13-2022, 07:52 AM
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Re: Should we still observe the sabbath?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
See? I really get the feeling you aren't reading what you are responding to. I know you feel you "don't personally need" the 4th Commandment to tell you give a worker a day off. I addressed that personal feeling. In effect, y essentially feel you know better than God does in how to go about doing the right thing. The 4th Commandment is just another precept in a long list of precepts that would weigh you down and from which you have been freed. Amirite?

I really think you have missed the entire point of Isaiah's teaching and have inadvertently championed the very position he was rebuking.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Seems like the apostle didn't want anyone to rely on their inner bubbly feels to be able to verify if their actions are in fact right. He instead pointed to "all Scripture" - which at the time included the ones YOU say you "don't personally need."
A poor choice of words on my behalf. I didn’t mean that the fourth commandment can now simply be throne away. Instead, it teaches about entering into God’s rest, similarly to that rest that God had, after all His work was finished. Did God get all tired out after working 6 24hour days or was God trying to teach us about something greater He had in store for us. Each day day in the six day creation may not have even been absolute 24hr periods. The sun that is used to distinguish the times and seasons for us was not even created until day 4. How was evening and morning even distinguished before then.

Personally, I don’t think there are something’s we will know in this life. What we do know is that the format of the seven days in creation has taught us so much more.

The apostles didn’t forbid the Jews from keeping much of their mosaic practices when they entered the new covenant. But, it was explicitly repeated that they where not to burden down the gentile believers with that system. Of course all the law was the layout for our New Covenant doctrine, but we are no longer under the ole ball and chain. We now can walk in the Spirit of God. It is not about the feely weelys, but rather having the nature of God living in our hearts.

How could fisherman, which probably had little education and training in the law(other than was typical for ordinary working class Jewish children growing up), preach with such authority and wisdom the word of God? It was because the spirit of God dwelt inside of them, anointing them to . do so. It isn’t feelings that that I base my case on but it is a compilation of scriptures.

This person I am meeting with, is a vegan because he believes that is what God lays out for us in the first few chapters of Genesis (which goes even beyond Mosaic law). He would have people believe they are in sin because of the food on their plates, but that is contrary to the teachings of Christ.

If we are still under any of the Old Testament laws, why did Jesus come and die? In that case, Christ didn’t fulfill anything, but those laws are still in full effect. That doesn’t mean I find government from God by feely wheelies, it means that I have higher sense of the law of righteousness. Jesus expounds on it when he is teaching the sermon on the mount in Mathew 5. The law now now has more clarity for its purpose to us.

Last edited by good samaritan; 08-13-2022 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 08-13-2022, 08:00 PM
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Re: Should we still observe the sabbath?

Compare "the ole ball and chain" with this:

Jeremiah 6:16 KJV
Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

I think the choice should be clear. Father knows best.
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