1 Timothy 3:16 Mystery of Godliness

[scotty]

I posted the following on another thread.
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1 Timothy 3:16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles,
believed on in the world,
received up into glory.

The Bible speaks of the "mystery of godliness," but there are two things of note: First, the word "mystery" as used in the KJV does not refer to something presently not understood, as in a mystery to be solved. Rather, it refers to something previously hidden but now revealed. As in, "Beloved I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep (that was news to Paul's readers), but we shall all be changed." He was revealing knowledge that was previously hidden. Likewise, the phrase "mystery of godliness" does not refer to that which cannot be understood, but rather to that which has been revealed.

second, it's the mystery of godliness, not the mystery of the godhead. The topic there is not the Deity in a general sense, but the incarnation.
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I was asked my opinion on this topic in the other thread, I'll do my best here.

To me the mystery revealed here is Christ himself.
The first, “God was manifest in the flesh”, proves that Jesus Christ is God, the eternal Word made and manifested in the flesh through the incarnation of His Son. (John 1:14, Hebrews 2:14) The mystery to the Jews was that He was manifested in the flesh after all flesh, through sin, was made corrupt, yet He was holy from birth.


“Justified in the Spirit” He was judged as a sinner, a man accused of a crime, put to death for violating the laws of the Jews. But he was raised from the dead by the Spirit . His resurrection justified all He had taught. Taking on the sin of the world, delivered for our offences, but being raised again, justified by the Spirit, (Romans 4:25) shows that His sacrifice was accepted. (1 Peter 3:18)


“Seen of angels” Jesus was worshipped by angels (Hebrews 1:6), They were there for his incarnation, temptation, death, resurrection, ascension, they ministered to him. The angels knew and acknowledge who the Christ was.


“Preached unto the Gentiles” Christ was given to the gentiles as a saviour where as before it was of the Jews, now the seperation was removed. (Acts 13:47)


“Believed on in the world” I think the “world” here also speaks of the Gentiles. They welcomed the salvation that the Jews rejected. Who would have thought during the days of the prophets that the Gentiles would have believed in the Son of God. They were the heathens of their time and made up most of the "world" outside the Jews.


“was received up into glory” This of course was His ascension and though it was before He was “believed on in the world” I think it was listed last because it is the base for His exalting. I think this also speaks of Him being placed at the right hand of God where He has all power in heaven and earth, giving intercession for us all.


When studying this I run across Romans 1:20- For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

“by things that are made”??

[Pressing-On]

Very good, Scotty!

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by scotty

I posted the following on another thread.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Timothy 3:16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles,
believed on in the world,
received up into glory.

The Bible speaks of the "mystery of godliness," but there are two things of note: First, the word "mystery" as used in the KJV does not refer to something presently not understood, as in a mystery to be solved. Rather, it refers to something previously hidden but now revealed. As in, "Beloved I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep (that was news to Paul's readers), but we shall all be changed." He was revealing knowledge that was previously hidden. Likewise, the phrase "mystery of godliness" does not refer to that which cannot be understood, but rather to that which has been revealed.

second, it's the mystery of godliness, not the mystery of the godhead. The topic there is not the Deity in a general sense, but the incarnation.
----------------------------------------------------------------

I was asked my opinion on this topic in the other thread, I'll do my best here.

To me the mystery revealed here is Christ himself.
The first, “God was manifest in the flesh”, proves that Jesus Christ is God, the eternal Word made and manifested in the flesh through the incarnation of His Son. (John 1:14, Hebrews 2:14) The mystery to the Jews was that He was manifested in the flesh after all flesh, through sin, was made corrupt, yet He was holy from birth.


“Justified in the Spirit” He was judged as a sinner, a man accused of a crime, put to death for violating the laws of the Jews. But he was raised from the dead by the Spirit . His resurrection justified all He had taught. Taking on the sin of the world, delivered for our offences, but being raised again, justified by the Spirit, (Romans 4:25) shows that His sacrifice was accepted. (1 Peter 3:18)


“Seen of angels” Jesus was worshipped by angels (Hebrews 1:6), They were there for his incarnation, temptation, death, resurrection, ascension, they ministered to him. The angels knew and acknowledge who the Christ was.


“Preached unto the Gentiles” Christ was given to the gentiles as a saviour where as before it was of the Jews, now the seperation was removed. (Acts 13:47)


“Believed on in the world” I think the “world” here also speaks of the Gentiles. They welcomed the salvation that the Jews rejected. Who would have thought during the days of the prophets that the Gentiles would have believed in the Son of God. They were the heathens of their time and made up most of the "world" outside the Jews.


“was received up into glory” This of course was His ascension and though it was before He was “believed on in the world” I think it was listed last because it is the base for His exalting. I think this also speaks of Him being placed at the right hand of God where He has all power in heaven and earth, giving intercession for us all.


When studying this I run across Romans 1:20- For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

“by things that are made”??

I view justified in the spirit as referring to the ressurrection.
I view seen of angels as referring to those who seen him after his ressurrection and would later become messengers of the gospel.
Those angels or messengers who seen him then preached him to the gentiles.
Those people who he was preached to then believed on him.

That's my view and I think it lines up pretty well with the rest of the new testament. His ressurrection was the proof or justification of his ministry and we see this elsewhere. After his ressurrection he was seen of his disciples and this is greatly emphasized in many places. His disciples then preached him all over and this is also greatly emphasized (for example the great commission). People believed on him and this is a major focal point of the whole new testament. There are no new concepts found in my ivew such as actual angels seeing him (though they did when they rolled away the stone at his tomb). But even though they seen him its never mentioned as being of any importance.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I view justified in the spirit as referring to the ressurrection.
I view seen of angels as referring to those who seen him after his ressurrection and would later become messengers of the gospel.
Those angels or messengers who seen him then preached him to the gentiles.
Those people who he was preached to then believed on him.

That's my view and I think it lines up pretty well with the rest of the new testament. His ressurrection was the proof or justification of his ministry and we see this elsewhere. After his ressurrection he was seen of his disciples and this is greatly emphasized in many places. His disciples then preached him all over and this is also greatly emphasized (for example the great commission). People believed on him and this is a major focal point of the whole new testament. There are no new concepts found in my ivew such as actual angels seeing him (though they did when they rolled away the stone at his tomb). But even though they seen him its never mentioned as being of any importance.

1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

How do you understand "God was received up into glory"

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

How do you understand "God was received up into glory"

I'm not going to turn this thread into a debate about whether that verse says Jesus is God or not.

It's obvious that received up into glory refers to the ascension. I didn't think I would need to explain that part seeing as I'm in agreement with scotty as to why it was listed last.

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

How do you understand "God was received up into glory"

The Incarnation (Flesh) of God was taken up into heaven as a gloried body? Isn't this whole verse talking about the incarnation of God?

Pretty simple to understand.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by scotty

The Bible speaks of the "mystery of godliness," but there are two things of note: First, the word "mystery" as used in the KJV does not refer to something presently not understood, as in a mystery to be solved. Rather, it refers to something previously hidden but now revealed. As in, "Beloved I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep (that was news to Paul's readers), but we shall all be changed." He was revealing knowledge that was previously hidden. Likewise, the phrase "mystery of godliness" does not refer to that which cannot be understood, but rather to that which has been revealed.

Notwithstanding what my views might be with regards to all of the other things you've written, I want to direct my remarks exclusively to the context of your statements which I have bolded; first by tendering this question - Where are these things stated in the biblical text; either by implication or inference? - and secondly, saying that it has always been my personal belief that every teachings recorded in the writings of the New Testament represents the same things which were foretold within the context of the Old Testament writings.

Are not your statements a representation of your conclusions based entirely upon the manner in which you've interpreted Paul's writings, rather than the explicit statement of scriptures? Is it really truthful for one to assert, or even to suggest, that God revealed knowledge unto the apostle Paul concerning something which He had never shown to another? Such a conclusion is faulty, IMHO, for it contradicts the clear word of the Lord as recorded by John:

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." - Revelation 10:7

Solomon was inspired of God to advise us (i.e., concerning the "mystery of God") that "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." - Proverbs 25:2

I hold firm to the belief that all of the knowledge pretaining to the "mystery of God" was already made known to His servants, the prophets of olden time; who were inspired/commanded to record them for our learning, however, God expects us to make the investment of the time and energies required to "rightly divide the word of truth" to locate them! In this regards, that which Paul penned consisted of truths which had previously been revealed; although the manner of it's expression within the language of the Old Testament was not necessarily the same.

In summation, I am not convinced that your assertions (bolded) are accurate!

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Notwithstanding what my views might be with regards to all of the other things you've written, I want to direct my remarks exclusively to the context of your statements which I have bolded; first by tendering this question - Where are these things stated in the biblical text; either by implication or inference? - and secondly, saying that it has always been my personal belief that every teachings recorded in the writings of the New Testament represents the same things which were foretold within the context of the Old Testament writings.

Are not your statements a representation of your conclusions based entirely upon the manner in which you've interpreted Paul's writings, rather than the explicit statement of scriptures? Is it really truthful for one to assert, or even to suggest, that God revealed knowledge unto the apostle Paul concerning something which He had never shown to another? Such a conclusion is faulty, IMHO, for it contradicts the clear word of the Lord as recorded by John:

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." - Revelation 10:7

Solomon was inspired of God to advise us (i.e., concerning the "mystery of God") that "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." - Proverbs 25:2

I hold firm to the belief that all of the knowledge pretaining to the "mystery of God" was already made known to His servants, the prophets of olden time; who were inspired/commanded to record them for our learning, however, God expects us to make the investment of the time and energies required to "rightly divide the word of truth" to locate them! In this regards, that which Paul penned consisted of truths which had previously been revealed; although the manner of it's expression within the language of the Old Testament was not necessarily the same.

In summation, I am not convinced that your assertions (bolded) are accurate!

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Notwithstanding what my views might be with regards to all of the other things you've written, I want to direct my remarks exclusively to the context of your statements which I have bolded; first by tendering this question - Where are these things stated in the biblical text; either by implication or inference? - and secondly, saying that it has always been my personal belief that every teachings recorded in the writings of the New Testament represents the same things which were foretold within the context of the Old Testament writings.

Are not your statements a representation of your conclusions based entirely upon the manner in which you've interpreted Paul's writings, rather than the explicit statement of scriptures? Is it really truthful for one to assert, or even to suggest, that God revealed knowledge unto the apostle Paul concerning something which He had never shown to another? Such a conclusion is faulty, IMHO, for it contradicts the clear word of the Lord as recorded by John:

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." - Revelation 10:7

Solomon was inspired of God to advise us (i.e., concerning the "mystery of God") that "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." - Proverbs 25:2

I hold firm to the belief that all of the knowledge pretaining to the "mystery of God" was already made known to His servants, the prophets of olden time; who were inspired/commanded to record them for our learning, however, God expects us to make the investment of the time and energies required to "rightly divide the word of truth" to locate them! In this regards, that which Paul penned consisted of truths which had previously been revealed; although the manner of it's expression within the language of the Old Testament was not necessarily the same.

In summation, I am not convinced that your assertions (bolded) are accurate!

1 Corinthians 50:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

I guess it is my unlearned opinion that if Paul is "showing" them a "mystery" then it would have been unknown to them prior to that point in time, otherwise it would not have been a mystery, would it ?

While bible commentary's should be taken with caution, this one seems to agree:

This is the mystery which the apostle shows the Corinthians: Behold, I show you a mystery; or bring into open light a truth dark and unknown before. Note, There are many mysteries shown to us in the gospel; many truths that before were utterly unknown are there made known; many truths that were but dark and obscure before are there brought into open day, and plainly revealed; and many things are in part revealed that will never be fully known, nor perhaps clearly understood. The apostle here makes known a truth unknown before, which is that the saints living at our Lord’s second coming will not die, but be changed, that this change will be made in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and at the sound of the last trump; for, as he tells us elsewhere, the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (1 Thess. 4:16),

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by scotty

1 Corinthians 50:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

I guess it is my unlearned opinion that if Paul is "showing" them a "mystery" then it would have been unknown to them prior to that point in time, otherwise it would not have been a mystery, would it ?

While bible commentary's should be taken with caution, this one seems to agree:

This is the mystery which the apostle shows the Corinthians: Behold, I show you a mystery; or bring into open light a truth dark and unknown before. Note, There are many mysteries shown to us in the gospel; many truths that before were utterly unknown are there made known; many truths that were but dark and obscure before are there brought into open day, and plainly revealed; and many things are in part revealed that will never be fully known, nor perhaps clearly understood. The apostle here makes known a truth unknown before, which is that the saints living at our Lord’s second coming will not die, but be changed, that this change will be made in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and at the sound of the last trump; for, as he tells us elsewhere, the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (1 Thess. 4:16),

May I call upon your benevolence, Scotty, to provide me with a sound, indisputable scriptural passage(s) in response to the following question:

Where is it found within the scriptural text that the Lord expressly stated that there would be some that would remain alive unto His coming again?

Is this not what apostle Paul appealed to as the authority for his statement of I Thessalonians 4:15 - "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

Where is it written that the Lord expressly said the same thing? Was Paul appealing to "the word of the Lord" which didn't exist because He never expressed such a thing? Of course not! He would never do such a thing; therefore it must have been that Jesus said the same thing!

When you determine the answer to this question, you will find the "key" which will unlock the esoteric details of the "mystery" which Paul mentioned in I Corinthians 15, but not until then!

With regards to the Commentary that you have appealed as the basis for your understanding of the matter (albeit you've failed to note its author), I would recommend that it be placed immediately in "File #13" - the trash can - for it is replete with faulty carnal surmisings IMHO.