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Old 06-04-2018, 10:20 AM
n david n david is offline
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SCOTUS Rulings

The only thing I like about June is helping with VBS at church and reviewing SCOTUS rulings.

Mixed news today: "BREAKING: U.S. Supreme Court rules in favor of Colorado baker who refused to make wedding cake for gay couple for religious reasons."

While the vote was not close (7-2), the ruling was pretty narrow. SCOTUS ruled, ironically, that the CO civil rights commission violated the rights of the baker. However, the SCOTUS did not rule on the issue of the Baker's free speech or religious rights.

The ruling basically was due to the SCOTUS belief that the CO civil rights commission "showed elements of a clear and impermissible hostility toward the sincere religious beliefs motivating his objection."

"As the record shows, some of the commissioners at the Commission’s formal, public hearings endorsed the view that religious beliefs cannot legitimately be carried into the public sphere or commercial domain, disparaged Phillips’ faith as despicable and characterized it as merely rhetorical, and compared his invocation of his sincerely held religious beliefs to defenses of slavery and the Holocaust."

"For these reasons, the Commission’s treatment of Phillips’ case violated the State’s duty under the First Amendment not to base laws or regulations on hostility to a religion or religious viewpoint. The government, consistent with the Constitution’s guarantee of free exercise, cannot impose regulations that are hostile to the religious beliefs of affected citizens and cannot act in a manner that passes judgment upon or presupposes the illegitimacy of religious beliefs and practices."

Here's where the next Christian baker may fail to win a SCOTUS case, if another is brought. The last part is important.

"Our society has come to the recognition that gay persons and gay couples cannot be treated as social outcasts or as inferior in dignity and worth. For that reason the laws and the Constitution can, and in some instances must, protect them in the exercise of their civil rights. The exercise of their freedom on terms equal to others must be given great weight and respect by the courts. At the same time, the religious and philosophical objections to gay marriage are protected views and in some instances protected forms of expression. As this Court observed in Obergefell v. Hodges, 576 U. S. ___ (2015), “[t]he First Amendment ensures that religious organizations and persons are given proper protection as they seek to teach the principles that are so fulfilling and so central to their lives and faiths.” Id., at ___ (slip op., at 27). Nevertheless, while those religious and philosophical objections are protected, it is a general rule that such objections do not allow business owners and other actors in the economy and in society to deny protected persons equal access to goods and services under a neutral and generally applicable public accommodations law."

So this was a very narrow ruling. The SCOTUS did not side with the baker in that his religious beliefs allow him to refuse to serve gays. It appears the only reason SCOTUS sided with the baker is because the CO court and civil rights commission was overtly hostile to the baker's religious beliefs.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinion...6-111_j4el.pdf

Last edited by n david; 06-04-2018 at 10:23 AM.
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  #2  
Old 06-04-2018, 10:21 AM
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Pressing-On Pressing-On is offline
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Re: SCOTUS Rulings

I just added this to Esaias thread, but glad you posted this. I have been following this story and am glad for the outcome.
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Old 06-04-2018, 10:33 AM
BuckeyeBukaroo BuckeyeBukaroo is offline
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Re: SCOTUS Rulings

Glad that the baker won, but the SCOTUS had to be sure to walk a tight rope. Can you imagine the can of worms that could be opened if SCOTUS did not include language that protects the rights of all citizens to participate in the free market? While we all enjoy religious freedoms, even those freedoms are tempered with the rule of law in order to keep our society from denigrating into all sorts of other forms of immorality. Think about the polygamous Mormons...

Last edited by BuckeyeBukaroo; 06-04-2018 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 06-04-2018, 01:06 PM
Jito463 Jito463 is offline
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Re: SCOTUS Rulings

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckeyeBukaroo View Post
Can you imagine the can of worms that could be opened if SCOTUS did not include language that protects the rights of all citizens to participate in the free market?
The issue wasn't with them baking the cake, it was with participating in the ceremony (via decorating the cake for the "wedding"). Why should the baker be forced to give up their rights and religious freedoms, just because they have a business?

Ultimately, this wasn't an attack on this baker, it was an attack on Christianity. Don't believe me? Go check out the Steven Crowder video (normally can't stand the guy, but he does make some good points) where he pretends to be gay and goes around to Muslim bakeries asking them to bake him a gay for his "marriage". Not one of them would do it, and constantly referred him to other places.

Why is it we've never heard of a Muslim bakery getting sued for not baking a cake? A real head scratcher, that is.
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Old 06-04-2018, 10:42 AM
n david n david is offline
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Re: SCOTUS Rulings

Gays shouldn't be mad at this ruling. If anything, they should be happy for Justice Kennedy's opinion and the statement included: "while those religious and philosophical objections are protected, it is a general rule that such objections do not allow business owners and other actors in the economy and in society to deny protected persons equal access to goods and services under a neutral and generally applicable public accommodations law."

This was a ruling based solely on how the baker was treated by the CO civil rights commission, not on whether or not the baker had a religious right to refuse service to gays.
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Old 06-04-2018, 10:46 AM
BuckeyeBukaroo BuckeyeBukaroo is offline
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Re: SCOTUS Rulings

Think about the polygamous Mormons, the animal sacrificing pagans, the religious belief systems that would advocate violence (Islam)... there MUST be restraints on religious freedom in order to preserve order and for the common good of all citizens.

Last edited by BuckeyeBukaroo; 06-04-2018 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 06-05-2018, 09:06 PM
Wilsonwas Wilsonwas is offline
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Re: SCOTUS Rulings

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckeyeBukaroo View Post
Think about the polygamous Mormons, the animal sacrificing pagans, the religious belief systems that would advocate violence (Islam)...

Was this sarcasm? If not please read on....
Specifically to this

....there MUST be restraints on religious freedom in order to preserve order and for the common good of all citizens.
There must remain as little restraint on religion as possible. If you are counting on the red, white.and blue to maintain the liberties we have to meet, to express Christ's love and value, to teach our children the way that is narrow, then you place a very precious trust in the hands of some verifiable nutcases. Rome already seems to be rearing an ugly horn from the midst of the EU. This horn will allow any religion that aligns with it, to flourish. All real God fearing thought will be as faint and welcome as actual free speech is on our college campuses already. A few snowflakes amount to some fun and a day off, many for a long time can cause inconvenience, a storm if them with thunder and wind can bring catastrophe. I feel we are at the beginnings of the storm, this pope supports the snowflakes, this cannot bode well for the beleivers in the message of the Apostles- other than to solidify in our minds the fact that prophecy is true.

I dont care if its Wika that refuse to bake cakes, they deserve the right. Not because of any of any agreement with them, but because they are (wrong or not) a religion. A beleif system that beleives in a higher power. It was protected under the original negative rights assigned to gooberment as fences where it should not infringe.
I sincerly beleive that unless a great many are worn out by the continual whinning from our fringe of leftest victimization of literally everyone except good hard working, and God fearing folk. Then it is likely infringement will begin with those they see as marginal, and a threat. If they go after Wika they think they are a threat. As with many other programs done according to the book of Saul Alinski (spelling might be wrong)...this will appear sound and moderate to those not Wika....Until that is they start on the Baptists.....or more likely on the WPF or UPC, being smaller, seen as fringe organizations. Therefore I disagree with the MUST be restraints
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:10 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: SCOTUS Rulings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilsonwas View Post
There must remain as little restraint on religion as possible. If you are counting on the red, white.and blue to maintain the liberties we have to meet, to express Christ's love and value, to teach our children the way that is narrow, then you place a very precious trust in the hands of some verifiable nutcases. Rome already seems to be rearing an ugly horn from the midst of the EU. This horn will allow any religion that aligns with it, to flourish. All real God fearing thought will be as faint and welcome as actual free speech is on our college campuses already. A few snowflakes amount to some fun and a day off, many for a long time can cause inconvenience, a storm if them with thunder and wind can bring catastrophe. I feel we are at the beginnings of the storm, this pope supports the snowflakes, this cannot bode well for the beleivers in the message of the Apostles- other than to solidify in our minds the fact that prophecy is true.

I dont care if its Wika that refuse to bake cakes, they deserve the right. Not because of any of any agreement with them, but because they are (wrong or not) a religion. A beleif system that beleives in a higher power. It was protected under the original negative rights assigned to gooberment as fences where it should not infringe.
I sincerly beleive that unless a great many are worn out by the continual whinning from our fringe of leftest victimization of literally everyone except good hard working, and God fearing folk. Then it is likely infringement will begin with those they see as marginal, and a threat. If they go after Wika they think they are a threat. As with many other programs done according to the book of Saul Alinski (spelling might be wrong)...this will appear sound and moderate to those not Wika....Until that is they start on the Baptists.....or more likely on the WPF or UPC, being smaller, seen as fringe organizations. Therefore I disagree with the MUST be restraints
I have to share my thoughts on this because I have mixed feelings.

First, I don't believe any non-profit church or religious 501(c) organization should be forced to participate in or facilitate anything that goes against their religious beliefs. Not under any circumstance.

However, if one is incorporated as a for profit business LLC that serves the general public, I'm hard pressed to justify any form of discrimination based on civil statutes governing discrimination. Imagine if your favorite "Christian" bakery refused to sell you a wedding cake because you're Apostolic, and they "don't do cult weddings". Why is your money not good enough to purchase your favorite kind of cake for your wedding simply based upon your religion? Where is your right to do business with legal tender in a free market? Should they be able to deny you that right, based only on your religion?

Now, if the bakery was a business that catered strictly to private and registered "Christian" members who subscribe to their goods and services, I can see them having a right to turn away anyone based on not being "members" holding Christian principles.

To not enforce some standard of non-discrimination, as it relates to businesses that serve the general public, could open a Pandora's box of everyone discriminating against everyone else over various religious convictions or individual convictions relating to religion.


Last edited by Aquila; 06-07-2018 at 11:36 AM.
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  #9  
Old 06-07-2018, 04:51 PM
Jito463 Jito463 is offline
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Re: SCOTUS Rulings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
However, if one is incorporated as a for profit business LLC that serves the general public, I'm hard pressed to justify any form of discrimination based on civil statutes governing discrimination. Imagine if your favorite "Christian" bakery refused to sell you a wedding cake because you're Apostolic, and they "don't do cult weddings". Why is your money not good enough to purchase your favorite kind of cake for your wedding simply based upon your religion? Where is your right to do business with legal tender in a free market? Should they be able to deny you that right, based only on your religion?
Here's the thing, if they had come in to buy a pre-made cake and just decorated it themselves, there wouldn't have been an issue. That they wanted a new cake made to their exact specifications, means they're asking the owner of the business to use their artistic talent, in order to make something that celebrates a lifestyle which is in direct opposition to said owners beliefs.

Imagine going to a Muslim or Jewish bakery and asking them to make a cake with a pig on the top, and writing "I love bacon" around it. Shouldn't they have the right to refuse that, due to their dietary and religious beliefs? This case is no different. They weren't asking them to just sell them a cake, they were asking an artist to use their talents in violation of their beliefs. That's why this is wrong.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
Sometimes hidden dangers spring on us suddenly. Those are out of our control. But when one can see the danger, and then refuses to arrest , all in the name of "God is in control", they are forfeiting God given, preventive opportunities.
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Old 06-07-2018, 12:58 PM
BuckeyeBukaroo BuckeyeBukaroo is offline
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Re: SCOTUS Rulings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilsonwas View Post
There must remain as little restraint on religion as possible. If you are counting on the red, white.and blue to maintain the liberties we have to meet, to express Christ's love and value, to teach our children the way that is narrow, then you place a very precious trust in the hands of some verifiable nutcases. Rome already seems to be rearing an ugly horn from the midst of the EU. This horn will allow any religion that aligns with it, to flourish. All real God fearing thought will be as faint and welcome as actual free speech is on our college campuses already. A few snowflakes amount to some fun and a day off, many for a long time can cause inconvenience, a storm if them with thunder and wind can bring catastrophe. I feel we are at the beginnings of the storm, this pope supports the snowflakes, this cannot bode well for the beleivers in the message of the Apostles- other than to solidify in our minds the fact that prophecy is true.

I dont care if its Wika that refuse to bake cakes, they deserve the right. Not because of any of any agreement with them, but because they are (wrong or not) a religion. A beleif system that beleives in a higher power. It was protected under the original negative rights assigned to gooberment as fences where it should not infringe.
I sincerly beleive that unless a great many are worn out by the continual whinning from our fringe of leftest victimization of literally everyone except good hard working, and God fearing folk. Then it is likely infringement will begin with those they see as marginal, and a threat. If they go after Wika they think they are a threat. As with many other programs done according to the book of Saul Alinski (spelling might be wrong)...this will appear sound and moderate to those not Wika....Until that is they start on the Baptists.....or more likely on the WPF or UPC, being smaller, seen as fringe organizations. Therefore I disagree with the MUST be restraints


No. I wasn't being sarcastic in the examples Isited. Those are just the three most egregious practices of religion that I could think of that must remain outlawed for the good of our society.

If I try hard, I can thinK of more exampled AND none of the examples I listed are far-fetched.
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