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  #321  
Old 06-02-2019, 09:56 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Please explain how Deut 24 provides for a "set of circumstances, which would be impossible under the new covenant and the words of Jesus".
do you know any uncleanness in the New Testament?
in general there is one "be an un-believer" but is this case we are commanded to stay with them as-long as they want to stay with us and only if they leave we are not sinning by caused them to commit adultery.
do you know any other?
(You dont see even the word divorse in the New but in general we see a "getting apart" for all reasons and a "put away" which even wioth not new marriage is sin because "whosever put away his wife causing her to commit adultery" .
But what we actually do is fullfil the law~ Not the exception Moses gave to hardhearted Israilets but the purpose of God before even the law!
Gen.2: ; 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
And Jesus said that:
Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? ; 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Also the man who fornicates is one flesh with her!
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
that is why we are obligated to pout her away!
Now according to the law yes we keep it straight!
Rom.7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband. 3 So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

1 Cor.7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

If for a serious reason the couple can not stay together then there is not a divorce! Ids there is a separation under the above rules! She can be away of her husband but till he dies she can not re-marry.
10 And unto the married I command, [yet] not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from [her] husband: Μαλ. 2:14; 11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to [her] husband: and let not the husband put away [his] wife.


Now does those words of Jesus fulfill the law? For example when he said " 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:3 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:" Amen. etc, is this a lesser Commandment than the law itself? the same goes for the Marriage subject then.
Amen.God bless you!
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  #322  
Old 06-02-2019, 12:36 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
In that particular set of circumstances, which would be impossible under the New Covenant and the words of Jesus, involving uncleanness and a Mosaic-sanctioned bill of divorcement, and the full abrogation of her original marriage, yes, the bill of divorcement combined with her legitimate remarriage definitely had an effect on the original marriage. It was "gone-marriage".
Jesus was upholding the Law, not changing it. The Law was not considered to have been fulfilled until Christ ascended. Matthew 19 is not a new Law.

Last edited by Originalist; 06-02-2019 at 12:40 PM.
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  #323  
Old 06-03-2019, 02:51 PM
Antipas Antipas is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
That is specifically what I asked you NOT to do, lol. Besides, the passage you cited is the very passage in question. What I am asking for is where does anyone in the Bible specifically teach that one can sin while NOT transgressing the law, or (which is basically the same thing) that God's moral standard for regulating human social behavior is something other than those standards detailed by the law, in His laws, commandments, statutes, judgments, and ordinances?
I apologize for not getting back sooner.

We both agree that transgression of the Law is sin. However, there are other dimensions of "sin". Whatever is not of faith is sin. Whenever one knows what is good and right, and chooses not to do it, it is sin. There are also sins against the Holy Spirit such as grieving, quenching, tempting, and blaspheming the Holy Spirit. While under the Mosaic covenant, sin was primarily a focus on the Law. However, Jesus often said, "It has been said, but I say unto you...", and with that, Jesus takes it far deeper, raising the bar far higher.

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According to the National Association of Christian Ministers, ministers are licensed by their church or denomination. Some states require said ministers to register with the State in order to perform marriages (as in Ohio), while most others simply recognize marriages performed by a minister licensed with his/her church organization. So, no stare to my knowledge licenses ministers, as ministers, but some do register already licensed ministers in order to validate marriages performed by them. Ohio actually calls it filling out an "Ohio minister's license application". See here: https://nacministers.com/answers-faq...ined-minister/

The whole thing seems to run afoul of any existing State religious establishment clauses (state versions of the first article of the Bill of Rights) but America abandoned rule of law decades ago, it seems.
If government is involved at all, it should only be state side. State's rights.


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Biblically, a marriage was an agreement between the bride, the bride's parents, the groom, and the groom's parents, requiring witnesses, and a consummating act. A dowry or bride-price was usually involved. Since marriage and divorce were subject to interference or intervention by judges/courts (subject to their jurisdiction), it follows that existing legal requirements to validate either would need to be followed (somekind of lawfully recognized documentation a marriage had occurred, for example, compliant with the local laws), as well as parental agreement and the agreement of the two parties getting married. Chattel bondage and private war prisoners are outlawed across most of the globe, so the voluntary nature of marriage remains.

So basically, a man would seek permission from both his and the woman's parents to marry her. That being granted and all parties agreed, a public declaration (ceremony) before witnesses would take place, followed by the consummation, and then whatever legal paperwork needs to be filed to validly record the marriage.

If local law requires a "performer" of the marriage, then just about any judge or Justice of the Peace could do it (depending on location). Technically, and scripturally, though, a father "gives his daughter in marriage", so Biblically that's as close as actually "performing" a marriage as I can find.

Fatherless women and other extraordinary cases would have to adjust their procedures accordingly while being as true to Scripture as possible.


Quote:
Elopement against parental wishes is no more recognized as valid by Scripture than is "gay marriage". Christians ought to restore parental involvement in the marriage decision process, it's there for a reason. In fact, it used to be in place throughout Christendom up until the Enlightenment began eroding it, along with everything else, in western civilization.
Amen. The role and authority of the family has been all but erased in our culture. I can only agree that the family should be more involved. As it relates to various civil laws, state marriage statutes, etc., I would bring back common law statutes and leave the management of wedding traditions, etc., up to couples, and involve the state as little as possible. Allow marriage to be governed by individuals, churches, and families. It seemed to be far more personal back before the state took it over.

Last edited by Antipas; 06-03-2019 at 02:53 PM.
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  #324  
Old 06-14-2019, 06:16 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Please explain how Deut 24 provides for a "set of circumstances, which would be impossible under the new covenant and the words of Jesus".
In Deut. 24 there is a sanctioned divorce, for a perceived uncleanness. In that case the divorce is in fact final, and there is not a second bite at the apple.

(Some discuss how this was designed to prevent a man taking advantage of a woman, and then getting her back for wealth, inheritance. Others discuss the nature of the uncleanness. The material from Leslie McFall and Sharon Henry likely goes into this in some depth.)

Under the new covenant there is no sanctioned divorce for a covenant marriage. None. The words of Jesus make this very clear.

Yes, they may separate for a season, and one or both may even fall into adultery, yet the covenant remains, waiting to be restored. This is why the standing movement is so important. Clearly, the churches have slipped way downhill in the last 50+ years, but the word of God stands strong.

No longer is marriage and spouse a "one from column A, and later one from column B" arrangement of convenience.

No matter how much the pastors and church members like that method.

Steven
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  #325  
Old 06-15-2019, 12:14 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
In Deut. 24 there is a sanctioned divorce, for a perceived uncleanness. In that case the divorce is in fact final, and there is not a second bite at the apple.

(Some discuss how this was designed to prevent a man taking advantage of a woman, and then getting her back for wealth, inheritance. Others discuss the nature of the uncleanness. The material from Leslie McFall and Sharon Henry likely goes into this in some depth.)

Under the new covenant there is no sanctioned divorce for a covenant marriage. None. The words of Jesus make this very clear.

Yes, they may separate for a season, and one or both may even fall into adultery, yet the covenant remains, waiting to be restored. This is why the standing movement is so important. Clearly, the churches have slipped way downhill in the last 50+ years, but the word of God stands strong.

No longer is marriage and spouse a "one from column A, and later one from column B" arrangement of convenience.

No matter how much the pastors and church members like that method.

Steven
According to the law, if a woman divorces, remarries, and then is divorced or widowed, it is a sin for her to go back to her first husband.

Does your view allow for a woman who was married, then "divorced and remarried and divorced again or widowed", to return to her first husband without incurring sin?
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  #326  
Old 06-15-2019, 08:42 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Does your view allow for a woman who was married, then "divorced and remarried and divorced again or widowed", to return to her first husband without incurring sin?
The woman can not be divorced with a bill of divorcement. Whatever adulteries intervene, she is always wed to her covenant spouse.

She and her covenant spouse should be reunited, and that is why it is best to be ‘standing’ for the marriage.

Last edited by Steven Avery; 06-15-2019 at 08:44 PM.
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  #327  
Old 06-15-2019, 11:16 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
The woman can not be divorced with a bill of divorcement. Whatever adulteries intervene, she is always wed to her covenant spouse.

She and her covenant spouse should be reunited, and that is why it is best to be ‘standing’ for the marriage.
If the law of God says a woman who is divorced and then is with another man, may NOT return to her original husband, because it is an abomination, then I am forced by Scripture to reject a view or doctrine that allows for what God does not.

Saying "the woman cannot be divorced with a bill of divorcement" seems a palpable contradiction of the word. "To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

I do not see how Jesus, in giving His answer to the Pharisees, suddenly abolished the law of God and made people sinners who a few minutes earlier were not. Jesus said we are forbidden to even think He came to destroy the law, and the context of that is in reference to application of torah (halachah) and the prophets (Divinely inspired gemara). If Jesus ABOLISHED divorce, then He is a sinner. It is sin to either add to or take away from the laws, commandments, statutes, judgments, and ordinances of God as delivered by Moses. Which is exactly what happened IF Jesus did in fact repeal God's law on marriage, divorce, remarriage, etc.

Therefore, I must conclude that this thread still has not yet arrived at any Scripturally consistent doctrine on marriage.

Again, I am not saying I have all the answers. But I do recognise certain parameters established by the word of God, and so far pretty much everyone on this thread has been stepping outside those parameters, in one way or another.
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  #328  
Old 06-16-2019, 12:53 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is online now
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Re: a mini-testimony

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Originally Posted by peter83 View Post
Hi, is very interested if you read some documents of the churches were formed at Azzuza street!
They were commanded the second times married couples to brake their adulterous marriage because were not valid.
They also were trinitarian. In other words, when you deal with confirmation bias you need to be careful.
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  #329  
Old 06-16-2019, 04:56 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

The Hebrews always believed that the Messiah could nodify laws.

Are you carefully following shatnez?
Or is that an Acts 15 exemption? For Jews, too?

The time of transition question is valid. More later.

Why did John the Baptist speak so directly about Herod’s un-marriage?

Matthew 19:8-9
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Trying to limit the many verses to an interpretive bout is not proper.

So you believe that Jesus was sinning if he meant what is written many times in the NT. Yet his words are clear, and he has authority over Moses, as he carefully explained.

Last edited by Steven Avery; 06-16-2019 at 05:01 PM.
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  #330  
Old 06-16-2019, 05:52 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
The Hebrews always believed that the Messiah could nodify laws.
From what Scripture though? I suspect that was Pharisaic belief probably to justify their own modifications.

Quote:
Are you carefully following shatnez?
Or is that an Acts 15 exemption? For Jews, too?
No linsey-woolsey for me.

Quote:
The time of transition question is valid. More later.
Looking forward to it.

Quote:
Why did John the Baptist speak so directly about Herod’s un-marriage?
Barnes:

This Herodias was a granddaughter of Herod the Great. She was first married to Herod Philip, by whom she had a daughter, Salome, probably the one that danced and pleased Herod. Josephus says that this marriage of Herod Antipas with Herodias took place while he was on a journey to Rome. He stopped at his brother's; fell in love with his wife; agreed to put away his own wife, the daughter of Aretas, King of Petraea; and Herodias agreed to leave her own husband and live with him. They were living, therefore, in adultery; and John, in faithfulness, though at the risk of his life, had reproved them for their crimes. Herod was guilty of two crimes in this act:

1. Of "adultery," since she was the wife of another man.

2. Of "incest," since she was a near relation, and such marriages were expressly forbidden, Leviticus 18:16.

Gill:

it is not lawful for thee to have her, being forbidden, Leviticus 18:16 for though by another law it was right to marry a brother's wife, after his decease, when he left no issue, yet this was not the case here; Philip was now living, and, had he been dead, such a marriage would have been unlawful, because there was issue; she had a daughter, who afterwards is said to dance before Herod; and besides, he himself had another wife, whom he put away; so that his sin was a very aggravated and complicated one: lying with a brother's wife, was one of those sins which, according to the Jewish (h) canons, deserved cutting off, or death by the hand of God. Josephus (i) gives another reason of the imprisonment and death of John, that Herod feared that the people of the Jews, through his means, would be moved to sedition, and revolt from his government; which might be what Herodias suggested to him, or what he gave out himself, to cover the true cause of his proceedings: but the true reason is, what is here given, and is to be confirmed by the testimony of Jewish writers.

Quote:
Matthew 19:8-9
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Trying to limit the many verses to an interpretive bout is not proper.
Considering His statement was delivered during an interpretive bout, I'd say it was quite proper.

Quote:
So you believe that Jesus was sinning if he meant what is written many times in the NT. Yet his words are clear, and he has authority over Moses, as he carefully explained.
I am saying that if He did what some here claim He did, it would have been sin. So I do not believe He did what some claim He did. He said very clearly we are not to think He was here to abolish the law or the prophets, and so... He didn't. As He carefully explained.

Thus I conclude this thread has yet to supply a comprehensive presentation of the whole counsel of God on the subject, but instead various factions are arguing for their respective side without harmonizing ALL the data.
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