Forgiveness or Remission?

[good samaritan]

Let me make a straw man case:

Man comes to a home Bible study where he believes on Jesus Christ. He and the minister kneel down in the living room and pray. The man repents of sins and confession is made to God and the Holy Ghost is poured out upon him and he begins to speak in an unknown tongue. After the 2 rise from their time of worship the preacher goes on to establish the need for baptism and the man agrees and says I must be baptized and they decide to go down to a local creek that is not far away. They get in their car to leave and as they pull out another speeding car comes flying down their street and t-bones them right in the new saints door and kills him on impact.

You mean to tell me, without a shadow of a doubt, you KNOW that the person died lost because he did not yet make it to receive water baptism?

I am persuaded that forgiveness is received upon faith and repentance. In such cases I would still have hope, but as I have already stated, forgiveness is God’s to give and he sees the heart.

[Esaias]

What about a man stranded in a desert and....?

What about the folks who repent but never get the Holy Ghost?

What about the poor guy who dies on the way to church and never gets to an altar call?

Whataboutism is a serious disease affecting millions. Do your part to stop its spread.

What about that missing Bible study that shows THE BIBLE TEACHES ALIEN SINNERS RECEIVE PARDON FROM THEIR SINS BEFORE BEING BAPTIZED FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS OR BEFORE BEING BAPTIZED AND WASHING AWAY THEIR SINS?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by james34

I can't formulate a coherent response for some reason.

True indeed. Try taking a break, get some sun. I hear Ivermectin also does wonders.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What about a man stranded in a desert and....?

What about the folks who repent but never get the Holy Ghost?

What about the poor guy who dies on the way to church and never gets to an altar call?

Whataboutism is a serious disease affecting millions. Do your part to stop its spread.

What about that missing Bible study that shows THE BIBLE TEACHES ALIEN SINNERS RECEIVE PARDON FROM THEIR SINS BEFORE BEING BAPTIZED FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS OR BEFORE BEING BAPTIZED AND WASHING AWAY THEIR SINS?

The answer to whataboutism is sometime simply we don’t know.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The answer to whataboutism is sometime simply we don’t know.

The answer to "what about baptism for the remission of sins" is that baptism is for the remission of sins.

[james34]

Originally Posted by Esaias

True indeed. Try taking a break, get some sun. I hear Ivermectin also does wonders.

Thanks a lot!

[Esaias]

I remember back on FCF and nFCF the discussions about the "PCI vs PAJC view". I also remember hearing that Tennessee had a lot of PCI-view ministers and churches. So I kind of understand what's happening here.

And yes I know "PCI view" and "PAJC view" are somewhat misleading as both organizations had both views to varying degrees, but... those who know what I'm saying know what I'm saying.

[james34]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I remember back on FCF and nFCF the discussions about the "PCI vs PAJC view". I also remember hearing that Tennessee had a lot of PCI-view ministers and churches. So I kind of understand what's happening here.

And yes I know "PCI view" and "PAJC view" are somewhat misleading as both organizations had both views to varying degrees, but... those who know what I'm saying know what I'm saying.

I gotcha, forgiveness at repentance and ivermectin for evrting else!

[Barb]

Originally Posted by james34

Why, then, do some come to the conclusion that we must be baptized in order to have our sin’s remitted ? Often, the discussion of whether or not this passage teaches baptism is required for remittance centers around the Greek word eis that is translated “for” in this passage. Those who hold to the belief that baptism is required for remittance are quick to point to this verse and the fact that it says “be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,” assuming that the word translated “for” in this verse means “in order to get.” However, in both Greek and English, there are many possible usages of the word “for.”

As an example, when one says “Take two aspirin for your headache,” it is obvious to everybody that it does not mean “take two aspirin in order to get your headache,” but instead to “take two aspirin because you already have a headache.” There are three possible meanings of the word “for” that might fit the context of Acts 2:38: 1--“in order to be, become, get, have, keep, etc.,” 2—“because of, as the result of,” or 3—“with regard to.” Since any one of the three meanings could fit the context of this passage, additional study is required in order to determine which one is correct.

We need to start by looking back to the original language and the meaning of the Greek word eis. This is a common Greek word (it is used 1774 times in the New Testament) that is translated many different ways. Like the English word “for” it can have several different meanings. So, again, we see at least two or three possible meanings of the passage, one that would seem to support that baptism is required for forgiveness /remittance and others that would not. While both the meanings of the Greek word eis are seen in different passages of Scripture, such noted Greek scholars as A.T. Robertson and J.R. Mantey have maintained that the Greek preposition eis in Acts 2:38 should be translated “because of” or “in view of,” and not “in order to,” or “for the purpose of.”

One example of how this preposition is used in other Scriptures is seen in Matthew 12:41 where the word eis communicates the “result” of an action. In this case it is said that the people of Nineveh “repented at the preaching of Jonah” (the word translated “at” is the same Greek word eis). Clearly, the meaning of this passage is that they repented “because of’” or “as the result of” Jonah’s preaching. In the same way, it would be possible that Acts 2:38 is indeed communicating the fact that they were to be baptized “as the result of” or “because” they already had believed and in doing so had already received forgiveness of their sins (John 1:12; John 3:14-18; John 5:24; John 11:25-26; Acts 10:43; Acts 13:39; Acts 16:31; Acts 26:18; Romans 10:9; Ephesians 1:12-14). This interpretation of the passage is also consistent with the message recorded in Peter’s next two sermons to unbelievers where he associates the forgiveness of sins with the act of repentance and faith in Christ without even mentioning baptism (Acts 3:17-26; Acts 4:8-12).

I found your post interesting; however, this is what I found a couple of years ago re eis that I kept on file. Nothing has been copied here other than the sources cited; all other comments are my own…

The Greek word eis is a preposition that looks forward to an object. There are those who take eis and teach that in English, in addition to for it can also mean because of, but the problem with that is, I have not been able to find one Greek scholar who translates eis any other way than for the remission of sins...

“The authorities, all of them, bear witness to the fact that eis never looks backward but always forward; that is, it is never rendered ‘because of’ or on ‘account of’ in all the New Testament, and it never had that meaning in any New Testament passage-not one” (Foy E. Wallace Jr., Bullwarks of the Faith, Vol. 2; pg. 50; Public Domain.).

“‘Eis aphesin hamartion,’ to obtain the remission of sins” (Thayer’s Greek Lexicon. Public Domain).

“The truth will never suffer by giving to ‘eis’ it’s true significance. When the Campbellites translate ‘in order to’ in Acts 2:38, they translate correctly. ‘In order to declare’ or ‘symbolize’ would be a monstrous translation of ‘eis.’” (J.W. Wilmarth, Baptist scholar. Public Domain).

“I would say the preposition ‘eis’ is to be translated ‘unto,’ that is, ‘in order to secure.’ The preposition indicates the remission of sins is the end to be aimed at in the actions expressed by the predicates ‘repent & be baptized.’” (William R. Harper, President of Chicago University Baptist. Public Domain).

It is worth noting that the above references were made by men who were not Apostolic in doctrine, yet understood the meaning of the Greek word.

To conclude, the word eis can be found 1,750 times in Scripture, and it is never translated because of, certainly not in the Greek NT or any Greek lexicon that I have found.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Why would we think plagiarism bothers the plagiarist?

Also, this is a forum, and we interact through "reading" each others' material. When you're quoting an article which isn't in the form of how you normally post, we can see that. No real Sherlock Holmesim, but just picking out where someone goes from posting like Jed Clampett to sounding like John Milton. Also you must state your sources. Biggest reason in my opinion is that you may quote an article out of context. If we quote our sources we are giving the chance for all to review the original article without bias of the one who quoted it.